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Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

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Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#171

Post by oh_sigh »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #169
ctdonath wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such is not the reputation of Christie's.

If they had only made this one sketchy purchase, maybe reputation would explain something. Or if there had been any record of them checking the claims made before purchasing this tablet. Or if Hobby Lobby hadn't publicly accepted that these actions were illegal.

Does Christie's frequently traffic in stolen goods? Is it possible that groups sometimes just defer to Christie's judgement when determining if something can legally be bought and sold or not?

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#172

Post by oh_sigh »

_jal wrote: post #118
taborj wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...assuming that they knew they were looted. You could make a case that, yes of course these items were looted, and they turned a blind eye to that. But you could also make a case that they trusted a 3rd party to validate the artifacts. Don't forget this is the group that voluntarily funded research that eventually proved some of their most prized possessions were, in fact, forgeries[0], so we have to assume they hav…

They may have a moral code, but it is the sort of code that is OK with illegally smuggling artifacts that their own hired experts and lawyers were concerned were looted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby_smuggling_scandal I'd suggest being open about forgery shows they're interested in getting their money's worth from their feeders.

So they share the moral code of as the great state-run museums of England, France, Italy, and Spain? That's good to know actually.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#173

Post by khawkins »

legerdemain wrote: post #8

One of the outcomes of the US-Iraq war was Iraq's national heritage of antiquities getting plundered and sold illegally.[1] The burning of the Library of Alexandria is a potent symbol in Western culture, but the world has repeatedly suffered massive losses of cultural and historical artifacts in the last few decades. The public quickly develops historical amnesia for recent events. Compare, for example, the loss of B…

Given the region's susceptibility to Islamic State uprisings, I'm not convinced Iraq and Syria are going to be good stewards of antiquities in the long-run. [1][2] These areas haven't been stable for decades.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_herita...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Mosul_Museum_ar...

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#174

Post by boomboomsubban »

ctdonath wrote: post #163
ctdonath wrote: post #131

NYTimes: "In a lawsuit filed on Tuesday, Hobby Lobby accused the auction house Christie’s of “deceitful and fraudulent conduct” in connection with an ancient tablet bearing a fragment of Gilgamesh. The suit claims “fraud and breach of express and implied warrant” in connection with the tablet, and seeks the return of what it paid for the tablet. In a statement on Tuesday, Christie’s said the lawsuit was related to an…

Also interesting how NYTimes doesn't even mention Christie's until paragraph 20.

Even if that lawsuit is successful against Christie's, Hobby Lobby's actions were still illegal. Who cares who is on the hook for the auction price?

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#175

Post by justin66 »

ctdonath wrote: post #131

NYTimes: "In a lawsuit filed on Tuesday, Hobby Lobby accused the auction house Christie’s of “deceitful and fraudulent conduct” in connection with an ancient tablet bearing a fragment of Gilgamesh. The suit claims “fraud and breach of express and implied warrant” in connection with the tablet, and seeks the return of what it paid for the tablet. In a statement on Tuesday, Christie’s said the lawsuit was related to an…

> Interesting how few are interested in the defense that Hobby Lobby was a victim.

This is just one page in the years-long story of Hobby Lobby's theft of thousands of antiquities. [1] Their attempt to pin one little piece of it on Christie's would, regardless of its legal merits, be met with boredom or skepticism even if the company weren't run by far-right religious fanatics.

[1] https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/united-states-files-civ...

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#176

Post by boomboomsubban »

oh_sigh wrote: post #171
boomboomsubban wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they had only made this one sketchy purchase, maybe reputation would explain something. Or if there had been any record of them checking the claims made before purchasing this tablet. Or if Hobby Lobby hadn't publicly accepted that these actions were illegal.

Does Christie's frequently traffic in stolen goods? Is it possible that groups sometimes just defer to Christie's judgement when determining if something can legally be bought and sold or not?

They probably deal in stolen goods somewhat frequently, but even if you could trust whether the sale was legal Hobby Lobby needed to ensure the import was legal.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#177

Post by djsumdog »

legerdemain wrote: post #8

One of the outcomes of the US-Iraq war was Iraq's national heritage of antiquities getting plundered and sold illegally.[1] The burning of the Library of Alexandria is a potent symbol in Western culture, but the world has repeatedly suffered massive losses of cultural and historical artifacts in the last few decades. The public quickly develops historical amnesia for recent events. Compare, for example, the loss of B…

The documentary No End in Sight talks a lot about the looting of national museums. It was tragic and entirely preventable, but the US did not commit enough troops and did not have a plan for reconstruction or securing anything other than oil fields.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#178

Post by sonofhans »

khawkins wrote: post #173
legerdemain wrote: post #8

One of the outcomes of the US-Iraq war was Iraq's national heritage of antiquities getting plundered and sold illegally.[1] The burning of the Library of Alexandria is a potent symbol in Western culture, but the world has repeatedly suffered massive losses of cultural and historical artifacts in the last few decades. The public quickly develops historical amnesia for recent events. Compare, for example, the loss of B…

Given the region's susceptibility to Islamic State uprisings, I'm not convinced Iraq and Syria are going to be good stewards of antiquities in the long-run. [1][2] These areas haven't been stable for decades. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_herita... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Mosul_Museum_ar...

Well, one of these artifacts looks to have been in that region of the world for over 5000 years. That's a pretty good track record.

I'm sure the citizens of Philly wouldn't be susceptible to any arguments that Baghdad would be a better place to store the Liberty Bell.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#179

Post by nemo »

khawkins wrote: post #173
legerdemain wrote: post #8

One of the outcomes of the US-Iraq war was Iraq's national heritage of antiquities getting plundered and sold illegally.[1] The burning of the Library of Alexandria is a potent symbol in Western culture, but the world has repeatedly suffered massive losses of cultural and historical artifacts in the last few decades. The public quickly develops historical amnesia for recent events. Compare, for example, the loss of B…

Given the region's susceptibility to Islamic State uprisings, I'm not convinced Iraq and Syria are going to be good stewards of antiquities in the long-run. [1][2] These areas haven't been stable for decades. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_herita... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Mosul_Museum_ar...

It's worth thinking through the question of whether Iraq or Syria would not be entitled to see stolen property returned due to destabilization. Right now the possessor of the stolen property is an American who also has trafficked in a number of items which were looted in the aftermath of the US invasion of Iraq (this particular tablet was stolen earlier).

Art theft is a real issue in the US and Europe. If an art thief stole then sold a painting owned by an American to someone in China, would you support seeing the stolen property returned to the original owner? Would you take seriously the idea that the owner wasn't entitled to have their stolen property returned since there was a non-trivial chance the art could be stolen again?

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#180

Post by gpm »

donw wrote: post #135
cambalache wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but besides the sanitation system,the aqueduct, the roads, the irrigation system, medicine,oratory, law, historians, dramatists,Vitruvius..what did those lousy Romans have?

They did invent chemical warfare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum

1. Are you sure you linked to the right page? That looks to be a condiment.

2. Chemical warfare was used before the Romans, for instance, like that condiment, the greeks had it before them. (Though I don't believe the greeks invented it first either). For example, see this wikipedia article (which is really in need of some improvement) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_chemical_warfare

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