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The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

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Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#341

Post by biophysboy »

pottertheotter wrote: post #111
DominikPeters wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of the OP is not a fan of Why We Sleep, having found many errors and misrepresentations [1]. [1] https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/

I had just purchased and starting reading the book when this was first posted here. I haven't spent much time to look into either side, but I stopped reading the book because I felt like I may be filling my mind with false information. And I bought it in the first place thinking an expert was going to teach the most important things we know so far about sleep. It bums me to think about this.

I read all of it, and enjoyed it. I think its worth reading. At the very least, it will get you to appreciate sleep as an open biological question. The critiques were about his data presentation and stuff like that, not the topic of sleep itself.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#342

Post by guzey »

biophysboy wrote: post #44

Guzey had another blog post on Matthew Walker's sleep book posted on HN a while back. I thought it was a bad faith critique, from my own biophysics perspective. We had some back and forth, guzey seemed nice & respectful enough, but I still had my misgivings about the critique. Sleep is very much an open question. HN seems to really love maximizing cognition and the overall efficiency of their life. That said, if you…

I remember your arguments and they were bad. Here as well you claim the causal relationship between sleep and longevity while we have 0 good studies demonstrating it.

Those interested can look at our Why We Sleep discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21903746

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#343

Post by kyuudou »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #331
take_a_breath wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wearing sleep-depravation as a badge-of-honor seems like an American quirk.

> Wearing sleep-depravation as a badge-of-honor seems like an American quirk. Not entirely an American thing, given the the common sight of a salaryman asleep on a train or cafe all over Japan. But given those 2 were the Largest Economies in the World for the last decades, and only recently JP was surpassed by CN in the middle of the last one, it makes sense. Having done it myself, I think its definitely an experienc…

My guess is post-industrial economies require next-level abstraction which is more mentally demanding and hence requires better rest and nutrition. Back when "produce more stuff more efficiently!" was the mantra it was easier to focus on incremental gains. Now the answers aren't so easy.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#344

Post by kyuudou »

bronco21016 wrote: post #322
hashmal wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline It's very common. Studies on sleep deprivation report that subjects do not feel their cognitive abilities decline. However, measuring cognition using objective tests does show a significant decrease in these abilities.

Sleep deprivation and cognitive ability is studied pretty heavily in aviation. Most airlines have mechanisms for pilots to self report fatigue events, events where because of operational needs the crew ends up working extended hours. There comes a point in the day where the pilots are asked if they’re ok to continue. It’s amazing that often times in the reports, which are generally done a day later, the pilots will s…

I did a flight safety training course and the video clips of people right before they pass out from anoxia are entertaining and educational.

Here's one from the FAA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSrGfElyfVE

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#345

Post by pashamur »

guzey wrote: post #333
toyg wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of studies on sleep, all with larger samples and more rigorous approaches.

Can you link to some pre-registered studies of impact of sleep deprivation on cognitive performance?

From two seconds of Googling:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B978044453...

https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/19/4/318/2749842

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2008-02717-005

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#346

Post by guzey »

pashamur wrote: post #345
guzey wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you link to some pre-registered studies of impact of sleep deprivation on cognitive performance?

From two seconds of Googling: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B978044453... https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/19/4/318/2749842 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2008-02717-005

I asked:

>Can you link to some pre-registered studies of impact of sleep deprivation on cognitive performance?

None of the studies you linked are pre-registered.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#347

Post by kyuudou »

spacephysics wrote: post #160
kthxbye123 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> or carnivore with a focus on ketosis Following a "carnivore" diet is a really terrible idea. Unless you're an Inuit living in the frozen north, you should eat some greens.

Going on 3 years now, with comprehensive blood tests taken every 3-4 months for 2 years. Never had better markers for inflammation (below error threshold), cardiac health, liver health, etc. Tried keto (proper), vegan, vegetarian, low-FODMAP, paleo, all without success. Found a forum of other IBS people, and decided to risk going against mainstream 'authority' such as the American Heart Association. So far, feel bett…

> Whats a terrible idea is to have fats linked to heart disease in a massive lie that spanned decades, ...

THIS. Combine with NYT article on the sugar lie[1] and we have a disturbing picture that in the least betrays incompetence. Also there is a lot of evidence from Robert Sapolsky's work with baboons that atherosclerosis has little to do with blood cholesterol and is much more about stress[2]

The main takeaways for me are: eat stuff that looks like food - meat and veggies. Fruit has fructose which must be processed by the liver and split into sucrose and glucose so keep the fruit and HFCS to a minimum. And don't stress (too much). And move your body. Walk 30 min a day, do some pushups, just do something.

[1]https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-in...

[2]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3309950/

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#348

Post by kyuudou »

oliveshell wrote: post #261
meddlepal wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more likely some people can just power through lack of sleep. I've recently started trying to sleep more 6-7+ hours after a decade of doing the 3-5 hours thing. I just feel better now with more sleep and while I certainly could perform at a high level with less sleep I had to exert more energy the longer the day went on to stay focused. Genetic? Maybe, or just really good discipline and work ethic?

Well, yes, but this is a bit of a false dichotomy. It’s obvious that capacity for discipline and work ethic are not entirely independent of genetic factors.

But it's always 30'C and plantains and mangos hang from trees! Why worry!?

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#349

Post by jkhdigital »

mjburgess wrote: post #314
jkhdigital wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ergo, ADHD might have a large sleep component. Yeah, I can count on one hand the number of times in my life when I woke up in the morning, even after a good night of sleep, and felt "refreshed". I didn't even know what that meant until I had a conversation with a coworker who just hops out of bed and is "on" immediately. Feels like there is a connection with my ADHD diagnosis.

A fitbit has been lifechanging for me on that front. Get one, and ruthelessly focus on improving your sleep. I have three layers of blinds (get portable blackout blinds); I use earplugs; I try to keep the room temp low. My mood, ability to think clearly, happiness etc. is very sensitive to my moving-average quality of sleep. I think a week or two of "fair" (fitbits levels) sleep is a catastrophe for me -- I need a hi…

Yeah I’ve gone through all of the sleep optimizations—eye mask, chilipad, blu-blocker shades two hours before bed, wake-up light—and it has produced marginal improvements that I still maintain but nothing revolutionary.

I know that caffeine consumption can be a big issue, but that’s a lost cause. Caffeine is like crack for someone with ADHD, and I’ve given up on trying to quit given my current demanding lifestyle. Maybe one day when my to-do list is shorter.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#350

Post by elbear »

vimslayer wrote: post #306
elbear wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be less likely to be rich and happy the smarter you are? If you're smarter, it means you can learn more efficiently. If you learn more efficiently, you get a deeper understanding of the world. If you understand how something works, you stop having the wrong expectations, so you're less likely to be unhappy.

> you stop having the wrong expectations, so you're less likely to be unhappy This seems like a big leap in logic.

Can you point out how?

Here's an exaggerated example: are you upset because you can't fly like a bird? Probably not, because you know that the world doesn't work that way.

A more subtle example: If you understand why people act the way they act, you stop being angry when they act in a way that is harmful to others or themselves. It doesn't mean you just let them do it. You stop them if you can. But it doesn't make you unhappy. Just like it doesn't make you unhappy if a wild animal attacks you when go into its cage, for example.

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