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Daily standups should be async

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131–140 of 156 posts

Re: Daily standups should be async

#131

I think if your standup can be async, then it's ineffective, and you should get rid of it. And to be clear, that's fine! Not every team needs standups. The only value in a standup is when team members actually share ideas about what they're working on. The detailed conversation happens outside the standup, but the purpose of the standup is just to get that moment of "I know about that, let's talk". In that case, havi…

> The only value in a standup is when team members actually share ideas about what they're working on

Or for management to track what you are doing and hold you accountable to deadlines and ask why you are late.

Re: Daily standups should be async

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you tell engineers that standups can go async or be cancelled if they're ineffective, they will find creative ways to make the standups ineffective. What the hell? Have you actually seen this happen? I can't imagine someone jettisoning something that makes their work-life easier and is an extremely low time commitment, just because you tell them they can. I can imagine them changing it to something else if that'…

> What the hell? Have you actually seen this happen? Yes, this is from personal experience. > I can't imagine someone jettisoning something that makes their work-life easier and is an extremely low time commitment, just because you tell them they can. Look at it from a different angle: If you tell people you're thinking about replacing standups with something more efficient, you've tipped your hand that the current s…

> If you tell people you're thinking about replacing standups with something more efficient, you've tipped your hand that the current situation might be inefficient.

Oh, well yeah, if you put it like that you might have a problem. "These processes are for you, if they're not serving the team or if you think something else could work better, let's talk about it and fix it" as a blanket policy for agile policies (which is supposed to be the norm in agile) is another thing entirely.

> On a similar topic: I worked in a department that tried to adopt a version of Elon Musk's famous "If you're not adding value, walk out of a meeting" rule. The people who hated meetings made it a point to not add any value in meetings, so they could get up and leave as soon as possible. This forced everyone else to have followup 1:1s with the people who walked out so they could be essentially re-capture their required meeting participation.

I have a feeling better meeting planning & pre-meeting communication would fix that and let you retain the "walk out if you can" rule, if desired, but it'd probably have to be so good that it'd far exceed the norm for that sort of thing, so yeah, probably impractical most places.

> A lot employees are drawn to work concepts that reduce their workload at the expense of their manager's. It's less efficient to make a manager play a game of telephone to spread information around than it is to get everyone together for a 15-minute standup, but if someone thinks they can reclaim those 15 minutes and force their manager to bring them any relevant info, it's a net win. In the real world, this becomes an inefficient and lossy system, but it sounds good if all you see is an extra 15 minutes saved in your day.

Yeah, that's probably true in some cases. I still think if you're having 15 minute standups and cutting that doesn't reduce total time for the process, that's strange. Though, yes, it might cause your manager to spend a little more time on it, personally—but taking two or three minutes to scan standup messages and make sure followups happened where relevant (most days this ought to be basically no work) seems like team lead stuff anyway, not manager stuff, which can just mean "whichever developer you've told to do that" if you don't have a designated lead (~every developer I've met over age 25 is very eager to do anything that can be described as leadership on a résumé so finding someone to take that on ought to be easy) and I'm not sure why a manager'd need to be involved most of the time chatting with anyone but the lead over standup stuff, and then only if their input's needed to unblock something or bring in someone outside the team who's too far above the lead's "pay grade" for them to do it themselves, which'd usually be a "let's talk after the standup" conversation anyway (though maybe not, I guess, if they're taking more than five minutes flat).

Re: Daily standups should be async

#133
post #18

Slightly off-topic: At my last office gig employing daily standups they quickly devolved into a thinly veiled attendance check combined with a passive aggressive attempt to shame unproductive team members on a daily basis. It became just another reason for me to never come to the office. At the time I was in a very head-down overworking phase of life and the leadership would turn my participation at standup into a ma…

Ugh, similarly, in one of my previous jobs we had a guy that was underperforming (I don't know why, he seemed smart, but it wasn't working out). Every day the standup turned into like 10 minutes of management and management lacky's bullying the guy and treating him like a child. It must have been awful for him (one day he just quit with no notice), but it was incredibly uncomfortable for the rest of us too -- I definitely didn't want to start my day every day with a long conversation about how this guy wasn't getting his work done.

I would honestly be more ok with standups if there was a bit more honesty about what it's for. If management just said "we need some visibility", I totally get that, I just hate how it's being marketed as if it's for my benefit.

I've been a professional developer for about 15 years, so if you multiply it by 15*261 (workdays in a year approximately), then I've been to about 3915 standup meetings. I can't recall a single one where I thought "glad we did that, we might have missed something huge if we didn't have a standup"

Re: Daily standups should be async

#134
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who raises a flag immediately when there is a blocker? Why would I wait until the next day?

They're not mutually exclusive. Especially at a time when everyone is remote and it's easy to miss emails/slack messages, etc., having a dedicated time to say "Hey all, I'm still waiting on X" is helpful.

This comes up a lot on the teams I've worked on.

But ultimately, the entire reason you have to go to standup and remind people to do their job is because they are not doing their job. It's surprising the number of people that can't be assed to make a simple to-do list and follow through on it and the number of meetings that are necessary to remind them of this fact.

I mean... what is the failure here? Is this not what Jira and the hundreds of other project management systems is designed to do? It's baffling, to say the least.

Re: Daily standups should be async

#135

I think if your standup can be async, then it's ineffective, and you should get rid of it. And to be clear, that's fine! Not every team needs standups. The only value in a standup is when team members actually share ideas about what they're working on. The detailed conversation happens outside the standup, but the purpose of the standup is just to get that moment of "I know about that, let's talk". In that case, havi…

Daily standups for status updates and whatever is – in my experience, 15 years at this point – entirely useless. As a way to shoot the breeze in the morning just to say hi though, it's really effective, especially when remote. I've been working 100% remotely for the past five years, give or take, and if I didn't have those 15 minutes of just shooting the breeze with people I'd never get my water cooler fix. Your mileage may vary, I guess.

Re: Daily standups should be async

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think if your standup can be async, then it's ineffective, and you should get rid of it. I agree, with one caveat: If you tell engineers that standups can go async or be cancelled if they're ineffective, they will find creative ways to make the standups ineffective. Poorly run standups are bad. Standups where the engineers are half-engaged are bad. But having a well-run standup that synchronizes the team, spreads…

> If you tell engineers that standups can go async or be cancelled if they're ineffective, they will find creative ways to make the standups ineffective. What the hell? Have you actually seen this happen? I can't imagine someone jettisoning something that makes their work-life easier and is an extremely low time commitment, just because you tell them they can. I can imagine them changing it to something else if that'…

As an IC, I've honestly just not attended many (any?) standups that provided value to me. I understand if it's for someone elses benefit, but that someone else is most assuredly not me.

Re: Daily standups should be async

#138

Our team does our stand-ups in Slack, in a separate channel called "#daily-status". Every morning, each team member posts a short bullet list of the items they are planning on working on that day, along with details about any things they are blocked by. This happens asynchronously as people start working every day, so one person might post their message at 7 am, while another person posts at 10 am. Any conversation t…

I personally like seeing everybody else on the call and talking face to face. As a manager I get a feel for how the others are doing. I feel chats-only will get rid of that aspect and make things more impersonal. Do you not have face to face calls at all?

There are still a lot of zoom/tuple/phone calls going on between people (in an asynchronous manner, as needed). We also do weekly retros as a team on a group call.

Re: Daily standups should be async

#139
post #32

Our team does our stand-ups in Slack, in a separate channel called "#daily-status". Every morning, each team member posts a short bullet list of the items they are planning on working on that day, along with details about any things they are blocked by. This happens asynchronously as people start working every day, so one person might post their message at 7 am, while another person posts at 10 am. Any conversation t…

check out https://github.com/coveord/scrumpolice , it can do the aggregation for you

That seems cool, but we haven't really needed anything fancy. As engineers, we are always trying to build solutions and over-complicate things, but sometimes all you need is for some people to just agree to do something (like posting a status message), and then everyone needs to hold each other accountable like adults.

Re: Daily standups should be async

#140
post #73
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Forcing the team to pay attention is probably harder in an async conversation chain than a meeting but I don't think ineffective is correct. I think this is a feature. If people aren't paying attention to asynchronous information, there's a problem. Either the information isn't useful or the team isn't functional.

It might fall under "non-functional team" but active listening/reading of usually banal but sometimes critical information is simply not an easy thing to do in a routine format. The information in a standup is team-wide because you do not know what will be important to who. It takes some amount of skill and discipline from the team.

Part of this is because the standard format encourages including shit that no-one cares about, or that a glance at the issue tracker or repo activity would (should...) clarify immediately if anyone wants to know. If your "no blockers" updates could be written by a very simple script maybe don't bother with those parts.

Or, god, worse if it's manager-centric and everyone's listing every little damn thing they did yesterday just to make sure they sound sufficiently busy. Ugh. No one gives a shit (except your manager, if they're bad and letting standups be used this way) do you need anything? No? Then move on.

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