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US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

cnbc.com

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Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#131

Post by onemoresoop »

ericmay wrote: post #103
saiya-jin wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, I get your point, they did/are doing tons of bad stuff. But so is every-fucking-body else, everywhere. Industrial espionage is a thing for more than a century, everybody tries to steal whatever they can, even US from Europe and vice versa. US secret services help their own private companies get an edge (for some other favors obviously), and so do other secret services. Friendships among nations is a very relativ…

So in that case, then it's surely fine to just block Huawei. It's just a continuation of the same shenanigans that "everybody is doing". Right? I think there are certain lines that aren't supposed to be crossed. You'll notice in the U.S. that Uber and Levandowski were sued by Waymo. Why? Because they stole source code. If "everybody is doing it" surely Waymo would just chalk it up to business as usual right? I guess…

CCP rewards citizens who steal and bring home. They’re touted as some kind of patriots.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#132

Post by rjzzleep »

ericmay wrote: post #53
AndyMcConachie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know why you're downvoted given that you're correct. The end result of this is to ensure that China develops their own semi conductor industry. Besides the short term loss of sales, in the long term new companies will emerge that compete with the American semi conductor industry. It's just a dumb move all around.

> The end result of this is to ensure that China develops their own semi conductor industry Seems to me that's happening either way and probably always was. Why wouldn't they?

It actually was fast tracked by the trade war. Government mandated domestic development of certain things after the US made it clear to China that they're not trustworthy trading partner. Not that China is, but kind of besides the point.

Similar to how the google ban fast tracked Huawei working on google free systems e.g. buying third party map services like TomTom. Bad for Google good for competition.

Basically the US has lost its standing thanks to Trumps bully diplomacy[1].

“Some if not all regional countries may harbour concerns about the security ramifications of using Huawei, but there are real pragmatic considerations,” said Collin Koh Swee Lean, a research fellow at the S Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore. “Cost-wise in particular, Chinese offers for infrastructure development present more attractive propositions.”

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/301282...

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#133

Post by onemoresoop »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #118
mindslight wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is classic disruptive innovation at nation state scale. Imaginary property only worked when all jurisdictions agreed to follow the same rules, and could enforce these rules onto individual actors. Obviously China isn't playing by these rules and has no desire to play by these rules, regardless of any lip service paid. So we can either adjust our own philosophies to better match how the real world operates. Or we…

maybe in hindsight it's always easy to spot the problem. but the tragedy here is that we're feeling the effects of lost opportunities and mistakes that were made already 15-20 years ago. We had a window of opportunity when China was still coming up to give them a carrot/stick treatment and force them to either reform in exchange for export opportunities or remain isolated. The same mistakes were made with Russia (tha…

Does it mean there’s nothing one can do?

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#134

Post by nobody0 »

ilaksh wrote: post #57

What is it that is actually preventing this from escalating to a hot war? It feels like we are just waiting for China to manufacture enough warships and nukes or killer drones or AGI with spiking neural networks or whatever can give them an edge so that a real war can start. It's even a war in the comments section. I don't think it's safe. How do we really know it can't progress to some kind of overt military activit…

"Wars are not meant to be won, they are meant to be continous" -- George Orwell

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#135

Post by toyg »

alisonatwork wrote: post #128
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

worked for a main competitor of Huawei building UMTS/LTE base stations which at the time weren't even properly standardized (early systems design). Searched for my own name on github. Found source code I wrote for said vendor which was taken from somebody who worked for our Hangzhou office and had access to the same internal VCS[1] as me. The guy downloaded anything he had access to then moved to Huawei and from ther…

I don't know anything about telecoms, but I work in a different area of software development in China and can confirm it is not uncommon for developers here to bring their whole previous employer's repo with them when they switch jobs. One of my most cringeworthy moments was when I saw the same XyzUtil class pop up in two different companies, and both had been sourced from the same (not open source) third company rep…

Pretty sure it happened in Europe and UK in early '00s too, from my limited experience. Sure, not in an obvious way, but it happened - mostly kept as a reference to go back when you're sure you've already seen/solved this or that problem before.

I mean, in Europe salespeople routinely take customer contact-lists with them whenever they move, everybody knows it. Developers do the equivalent stuff in their field. Asians are just a bit more blunt about it, because they have less to lose. Plenty of Europeans did the same sort of thing when moving to the US in 18th/19th century - I call it "hungry makes right".

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#136

Post by MayeulC »

evancox100 wrote: post #116
logicchains wrote: post #92

I wonder if this will be good for open source. Is there a RISK-V-like equivalent of whatever it is that's being blocked?

No, free/open-source semiconductor design software and equipment is non-existent, especially for modern nodes.

Well, that's definitely not the case, a lot of labs are on this (including Berkley's hammer/chisel [1]).

I've seen some tools presented at RISC-V conferences, but the major closed-source component nowadays is the PDK, I'm afraid.

Hopefully, inkjet-printed transistors or some other fabless technology will make open source ICs a lot more feasible. One of the major issue is costs, when you look at more than 40k/mm² for multiproject wafers in advanced nodes and contrast that with the anemic budget most open source software has to do with. You don't need to be on the very latest node, if you can afford going slower, on bigger, cheaper dies.

A lot of open source "hardware" project seem to focus on FPGAs, since that's more approachable, and the costs are nowhere as high.

[1]: https://github.com/ucb-bar

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#137

Post by uranusjr »

toyg wrote: post #135
alisonatwork wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anything about telecoms, but I work in a different area of software development in China and can confirm it is not uncommon for developers here to bring their whole previous employer's repo with them when they switch jobs. One of my most cringeworthy moments was when I saw the same XyzUtil class pop up in two different companies, and both had been sourced from the same (not open source) third company rep…

Pretty sure it happened in Europe and UK in early '00s too, from my limited experience. Sure, not in an obvious way, but it happened - mostly kept as a reference to go back when you're sure you've already seen/solved this or that problem before. I mean, in Europe salespeople routinely take customer contact-lists with them whenever they move, everybody knows it. Developers do the equivalent stuff in their field. Asian…

Asians don’t do it more bluntly. Chinese do. Sorry if I sound pedantic, but this is just insulting.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#138

Post by intheshadows01 »

It is very interesting reading all the comments from you guys, some from tech prospective others from policical ones. But from my angle, a normal Chinese guy working in the field of material research in China for a decade and deep inside the system, my points would be:

1. you guys really worry too much about our ability to innovate, seriously. There is no room for real innovations. But at the same time the system rewards stealing and copying. The system, the education, the overall political environment are not designed with innovations in mind but to help a few to stay in power. My personal take on this is that Chinese "innovation" is now built upon: Chinese with foreign education/working background bringing back technologies, CCP buying foreign companies with OUR everyday people's money, and of course hacking/stealing directly. I don't believe we have a change winning the innovation war, not in the long run.

2. for a "private" company like huawei, isn't it weird that it's always backed by CCP? Lots of Chinese private companies get balls kicked everyday and why only huawei get treatment worthy of a state owned business? Even us Chinese knows better.

3. please think about us everyday Chinese citizens. we are currently under direct information warfare and systematic repression waged by CCP for decades, and our lives/future squeezed out in order to found companies like huawei and projects like one belt one road, without a fking vote. It's much bigger than us vs huawei, at least from our side.

btw it is not my field of expertise but I'd like to call for experienced software/hardware engineers from the west, help us bring down the CCP's GFW system before it's too late. If it is built by man it can be broken.

thanks and apologize for my broken English.

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#139

Post by dredds »

krapp wrote: post #71
corebit wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no sure things. We don't like the current situation because its risky. But no risk no reward. If we wanted less risk our only option was to have done it way earlier - under Bush 1 or Clinton.

I'm fine with risks, so long as they're calculated from a position of expertise. I don't trust Trump to take smart risks, given his business history, narcissism and well documented disdain for expert advice. Someone who ignores intelligence briefings because he thinks he's too smart to need them shouldn't be acting like a maverick on the world stage. Simply doing something, anything, for the sake of having something…

I think this is why ppl (msm) should tune out the "Obamagate" nothing-burger, cos it's potentially less dangerous than anti-asian sentiments given the population demographics in the US. Who's next after; Muslims, Blacks, Mexicans, Jews, Asians??

Re: US blocks shipments of semiconductors to Huawei

#140

Post by billme »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #125
evancox100 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “loophole” was this: “Under the new rule, any foreign company that uses American technology to produce microchips would need a license to sell to Huawei. That makes it difficult for major chip contract manufacturers like Taiwan’s T.S.M.C. to sell to Huawei, because its supply chains rely heavily on American manufacturing tools. It could also clamp down on sales by makers of semiconductor equipment, like Applied M…

I don't really understand why they are requiring a license to sell to Huawei in the first place. That this is all such a string of vagueness makes me suspect it's a bunch of bullshit, more about politics (in the 'optics' sense) or business competitiveness than actual national security.

Pure speculation...

All of this is about national security. US & Taiwan’s TSMC are in talks to open a TSMC factory in the US. Chairman of TSMC has publicly stated if the US gives them enough money, they’ll do it. Appears US (Trump) is telling TSMC if they do not open the factory for free, they’re going to have trouble making money at all. Taiwan wants to keep TSMC because it’s an insurance policy, China & the US both need TSMC. That or it is a plausible way for TSMC to deny they’re cutting off China.

...any thoughts?

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