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Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

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331–340 of 424 posts

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#331
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How people with multiple properties do that?

Such folks normally designate one property as their "primary residence", commonly defined as a place where one sleeps 183 nights out of the year. That's where one pays local taxes.

So it's somewhat possible. Interesting what to do if one have three properties and you 'sleep' in them 1/3 of the year. More complex question about 'digital nomads'. I personally live in one place for many years already. But I'm curious what people do in more dynamic housing situations.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#332
post #221
post #11

Christy Lake, chief people officer at Twilio: > “It’s probably not great business practice to pay Bay Area comps in Michigan,” Lake says. And when it comes time to promote, would those employees have the same opportunity to advance as everybody else? “We need to think proactively,” she says. So, in case anyone is applying to Twilio, heads up, I guess.

To be fair - I used to live in Ohio and my parents and I lived in a 2 bedroom apartment that cost $600/mo about fifteen years ago. You could buy a 5 bedroom house for $250k. The school district I attended was also top notch. It was a great family area and I remember the mall, rec center, and numerous parks. I checked zillow recently and 5 bedroom homes are ~$300k and apartments are about $800/mo. At the time, my dad…

If you were able to afford a $250k house on $40k/year salary, why can't you afford a $1 million house on a "comfortable six figure salary" (if, presumably, that means at least $160k/year)?

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#333

I'm pretty bearish on the pandemic actually leading to massive change in the number of people permanently working from home. My boss put out a survey a week or two ago among my org (30 or so people), and 70% said that they want to work from the office, full time, 20% said some time or most of the time, and 10% said fully remote. And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home duri…

I had mentioned this in another post. I am personally sick and tired out working from home for over 2 months and cannot wait to get back to office. This is probably driven a lot by my role (PM) where you are basically in an endless stream of zoom meetings from 9-5. I get a nasty headache at the end of the day. I also yearn for social connections, quick chats, meeting in an outdoor space etc.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#334
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally have always been against paying people different rates based on geography. if a person offers value, they should be paid for that value regardless. some people say, but shouldnt their cost of living be taken into account? yes previously, but not when we choose to live where we want. I feel like that whole argument goes away once we are choosing where we live. that being said, I would expect companies to…

But we already pay people differently based on geography... If you are a software engineer and you show up to work in an office in Alabama, you already make less than the same software engineer showing up to work in an office in Manhattan — even if you are doing the same work for the same number of hours. This is already happening today. The only difference with remote work is that you don't show up to work in an off…

if you think the difference within a country is bad try being a developer in Russia, India, or China.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#335
post #63

If a company want to hire remote workers, why do that in US or Europe?

My company hires a lot of Croatian software engineers. Most of them speak great English. 1/3 are very, very good, 1/3 OK, 1/3 literally terrible. But we rotate the bad ones out and keep the good ones, and the rumor is they cost about 1/3 or 1/2 of an American worker. I honestly feel that the American software engineer may be in trouble if remote really does take off -- 2 solid Croatian guys for the price of 1 tech br…

I expect to see a lot of companies doing this. You read the same exact docs whether you live in SF or Bulgaria. If anything you have better math skills outside the U.S. which helps you more than a language barrier would matter.

Some might argue the best engineering is here, maybe that's correct maybe not, but companies rarely want the best. They just want the cheapest possible tool for the job they think they have. If a remote dev is significantly cheaper than a U.S. based remote dev, no business will be paying that premium.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#336

Desirable areas will always be (relatively) more expensive. Even if we see significant deflation (which is unlikely given the scale of money printing), these areas (NYC, SF) will probably remain expensive so long as they remain significant culturally and economically. When it becomes uncool to live in SF or NYC, then perhaps people will move to places like Wyoming en masse.

The cultural amenities of cities are in serious jeopardy, generally. Many of the restaurants, clubs, theaters, museums, bars, etc that make the city a desirable place may never reopen.

These are also the same cultural amenities that make a rural area desirable (what's really left after you've listed everything). These businesses are far more likely to come back in cities with different investors, they may never open up again in rural areas.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#337

One thing this doesn't mention is the pay cuts that happen if you do decide to relocate to cheaper areas. Both me and my Wife's company have pay bands based on geographical region(most employees know nothing about this and most companies employ these salary COL changes for relocation) and certain regions you can take a big pay cut. Say your salary in the bay area is 100k for example, move to the South, say Florida an…

There is also a cost to employment besides salary. Every state has their own laws and orgs to register to. (And every country has different social insurance taxes.) This means not only needing to hiring a lawyer to make sure they are in compliance with local laws, but paying an administrator to manage it.

It is not just the employer pocketing wages in LCOLs. There is a cost.

For larger companies; eventually they build out to a point in their main hq or want to provide jobs to get the support of that areas politicians in Congress; that these additional costs for hiring in another state are outweighed by the benefits.

But this can be very prohibitive to startup or even medium size companies. Especially 'slow-growth' ones that do not take VC funding and do not have access to a VC's network of lawyers.

If I move to Washington, with no income tax, but does have a revenue tax(B&O); does my remote employer now have a business nexus within that state? Do they have to pay that B&O tax that Washington levies (is it a tax for national revenue or just from all revenue within the state)? Not a lawyer.

Taking a salary cut, when you also take a bigger cut to inflated property values and taxes; is not necessarily the employer taking advantage, or even a net gain for both sides.

A better argument to me to staying in certain areas like the SV or NYC is losing the ability to easily network and find another company that would employ FAANG level skills. This ability is naturally diminished during COVID and I imagine many companies will take steps to keep their work decoupled from their offices in case another pandemic breaks out. I still do think about it as housing is just prohibitive here in CA where there are local tech jobs.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#338

I'm pretty bearish on the pandemic actually leading to massive change in the number of people permanently working from home. My boss put out a survey a week or two ago among my org (30 or so people), and 70% said that they want to work from the office, full time, 20% said some time or most of the time, and 10% said fully remote. And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home duri…

In these times of severe economic anxiety, I'm shocked that 30% of your org were willing to put their necks out like that.

Perhaps you have an excellent company culture. I'm part of an all-remote company, but at prior engagements, I might have cynically read such a survey as a roundabout loyalty pledge.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#339
post #334
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we already pay people differently based on geography... If you are a software engineer and you show up to work in an office in Alabama, you already make less than the same software engineer showing up to work in an office in Manhattan — even if you are doing the same work for the same number of hours. This is already happening today. The only difference with remote work is that you don't show up to work in an off…

if you think the difference within a country is bad try being a developer in Russia, India, or China.

Right, based on the value I provide to my multi-national employer, I ought to be able to buy a whole new house every year off of my salary, while living in India. It’s only fair!

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#340
post #14

People won't continue making their current SF salary by working out of Farmville, Ohio. I think this point is missed by many I fully expect Twitter, for example, to come out with salary adjustment policies for people who want to work from home from an entirely different city and state

How much of a paycut is acceptable for a given drop in COL? Ex. SF to Dayton, OH: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+compari... If your bills were cut in half, what percentage pay cut would you accept?

It doesn't scale as simply as that. Imagine you were making $100k with $60k in expenses in the Bay Area. That means your discretionary income is $40k. Then you move to Ohio and make $50k with $20k in expenses. That's $30k in discretionary income.

So, even though the Bay Area is 3x more expensive, and you're only earning 2x the salary, you're still taking more money home at the end of the year by accepting the job in the Bay. In this scenario you need to look at absolute cost, not relative cost.

(Obviously there are also other factors to take into account like quality of life, etc - but that's highly dependent on the individual)

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