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Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

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251–260 of 424 posts

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#251

I'm pretty bearish on the pandemic actually leading to massive change in the number of people permanently working from home. My boss put out a survey a week or two ago among my org (30 or so people), and 70% said that they want to work from the office, full time, 20% said some time or most of the time, and 10% said fully remote. And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home duri…

> And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc).

This is the group of people that largely prefers working from the office, IMO.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#252

People are going to be moving Mountain House or Reno at farthest, not Cleveland. Though the thought of buying a literal mansion near Boise with your techbux is amusing.

Idaho has been receiving a huge influx of Californians. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-10/go-back-... https://www.idahostatesman.com/opinion/editorials/article237... https://www.businessinsider.com/why-millennials-are-moving-f...

Yep. I think the overall migration as been: Bay Area -> Seattle -> Boise -> Nevada?

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#253
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One minor difference in the story: a global pandemic

How do you think that will change things this time around exactly?

I think it's already forced many employers that perviously weren't as remote-friendly to move more aggressively towards it. Already we've seen that in a big way at Twitter (see post from 2 days ago, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23155647)

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you live near your job if it's expensive? Your choice. Should your employer pay you more if they can pay someone less who lives somewhere cheaper? Their choice. If you want to live in a small place in the city, there is a cost. If it's not pleasant to work from there because there isn't enough space, that is part of the cost. You are competing with folks who can now work from home, and have the space to do so…

What decisions were made years ago? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. A lot has changed in a matter of 3 months. Decisions are constantly being re-evaluated with new information. I was simply opining on how something like "an increase in working from home" might actually have larger societal impacts. This article suggests people might move away from expensive places like Silicon Valley. I am suggest…

>Does a one-time stipend of $1,000 cover that? Probably not for many people.

On the other hand, commuting is usually not cheap--even if it's just a transit pass. Your points about space are reasonable though most people I know with houses seem to be doing OK. (But then we're a large distributed company so many are on video calls from home on a regular basis anyway.)

It's certainly fair though that, if you have a tiny city apartment that's just a place to sleep, that can't be very pleasant right now and you'd probably want to rethink if going into an office becomes no longer a typical daily activity. (Some companies will pay for co-working space so that may be one option.)

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#255
post #14

People won't continue making their current SF salary by working out of Farmville, Ohio. I think this point is missed by many I fully expect Twitter, for example, to come out with salary adjustment policies for people who want to work from home from an entirely different city and state

For reference, GitLab are fully remote and publish their rationale [0] for paying regionally-adjusted salaries.

Some of the arguments I don't really buy (for example, I don't think you need to hire anyone from very high cost of living areas to build a world-class engineering org at GitLab's scale) and others (e.g., the golden handcuffs argument) I think are just a consequence of fully remote teams currently being rare. But it's still interesting to see their rationale.

[0] https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/total-rewards/compensation...

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#256

I'm pretty bearish on the pandemic actually leading to massive change in the number of people permanently working from home. My boss put out a survey a week or two ago among my org (30 or so people), and 70% said that they want to work from the office, full time, 20% said some time or most of the time, and 10% said fully remote. And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home duri…

> And this is a group of people that would be largely well suited to working from home during the pandemic (young, no kids, etc)

That seems to be the group of people best suited for working from the office, since they can relocate to live close to work and don't have families to spend time with.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#257

One thing this doesn't mention is the pay cuts that happen if you do decide to relocate to cheaper areas. Both me and my Wife's company have pay bands based on geographical region(most employees know nothing about this and most companies employ these salary COL changes for relocation) and certain regions you can take a big pay cut. Say your salary in the bay area is 100k for example, move to the South, say Florida an…

I personally have always been against paying people different rates based on geography. if a person offers value, they should be paid for that value regardless.

some people say, but shouldnt their cost of living be taken into account? yes previously, but not when we choose to live where we want. I feel like that whole argument goes away once we are choosing where we live.

that being said, I would expect companies to muscle our wages down using this as an excuse. the good side is that there is financial incentive for companies to give us flexibility, as it costs ball park 1500$/month/employee to have a dedicated office space for them.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#258
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's literally just the lowest they can get away with paying you. Um, yes? That's exactly how this works. Google doesn't pay software engineers what they do out of the goodness of their hearts, they do it because that's how much it costs for a highly skilled engineer to come live in the Bay Area and work there. Humans aren't necessarily commodities, but labor is ABSOLUTELY a commodity. We have to start decoupling t…

fuck hn

> And employees don't work for Google out of the goodness of their hearts, what's your point?

My point is that the current value of a Google employee in Mountain View is the result of the negotiated value between the buyer and the seller. A Google employee in Mountain View earns more than a Google employee in Atlanta even if they are engaging in the same labor for the same number of hours.

> How exactly would you go about doing this? How is it possible to say that you don't deserve to live in a nice house, or have a nice car, or send your children to college based on the job you have and how much Google decides to pay you -- all while they capture the value you're generating so their execs and VCs can live in a nice house, have a nice car, and send their children to college?

Are you really making the argument that software engineers outside the Bay Area do not live in nice houses, or drive nice cars, or send their children to college? In fact, even with the currently lower salaries of software engineers outside the Bay Area, it is easier to buy a house, buy a nicer car, etc. This can be calculated by computing the ratio between the median house price in a locale and the median salary in that same locale[1]. In San Francisco, one must earn $183k to afford the median home. In Chicago, one must earn $63k to afford the median home.

> The system we live in is disgusting.

The system we live in is one in which we try and minimize the cost of goods and services to consumers. The role of markets is to minimize the amount of input necessary to produce goods/services, while maximizing the output of those goods/services. In practice, this means driving down the price of goods/services to the minimum possible price, while making them as abundant as possible, and as high quality as possible. This is good for consumers, because they can purchase those goods/services cheaply. This is why bread, milk, eggs, washing machines, clothes, TVs etc have gotten cheaper over time, relative to inflation.

Another good/service that consumers purchase is labor, mostly indirectly. The market is also very good at driving down the price of labor, and this is why wages don't outpace inflation, in the same way that the price of bread doesn't outpace inflation. Again, this is excellent for consumers, because the labor is an input in the production of goods/services, and the former’s cost is a part of the latter cost that consumers ultimately pay.

For software engineers, this is largely fine, because there is virtually no market in which software engineers are not in the top quintile of wage earners — or at the very least, in the top 2 quintiles. High skill workers will always find higher leverage work to do, and it's easiest for them to adapt to a changing market. Low skill workers, on the other hand, struggle to do this, and we must help them out through welfare and safety nets.

[1] https://www.hsh.com/finance/mortgage/salary-home-buying-25-c...

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#259
post #11

Christy Lake, chief people officer at Twilio: > “It’s probably not great business practice to pay Bay Area comps in Michigan,” Lake says. And when it comes time to promote, would those employees have the same opportunity to advance as everybody else? “We need to think proactively,” she says. So, in case anyone is applying to Twilio, heads up, I guess.

This is going to be the reality for every company. Bay Area salaries are what they are because of the local talent pool. You're not going to get that living in Ohio.

Re: Tech workers consider escaping Silicon Valley’s sky-high rents

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get a forwarding mail box from Manhattan and tell your company that's where you live. I mean seriously if the company's gonna dick around w/ salaries like that. I mean other than mailing tax documents is it really their business where you live?

> Get a forwarding mail box from Manhattan and tell your company that's where you live. Lying to your company about things like that is a great way to get fired. Everyone should ignore this terrible advice.

Also, it might screw with your tax withholdings etc.
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