Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever • Hacker News Board

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#721

Post by bachmeier » Wed, May 13, 2020, 2:41 AM UTC

tspike wrote: post #701

bachmeier wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just want to point out that there's no rational basis for this argument unless the employee in SF is much more productive. To put it another way, do you currently see pay adjustments based on housing costs for employees living in SF? Have you ever heard of differences across employees simply because one of them has a more expensive house?

> do you currently see pay adjustments based on housing costs Yes, it's commonly referred to as "cost of living adjustment." The rational basis is that the employer sees strategic value in having a physical presence in a given locale, and are willing to pay a premium to have employees actually located there. Note that I've been working remotely full-time for years, and never plan to go back. I am, however, under no i…

> Yes, it's commonly referred to as "cost of living adjustment."

I think you missed the point I was making. Have you seen two employees living in the same city, with one paid more because he decided to buy a more expensive house?

I'm aware that there are regional differences, but they can be explained by factors like different productivity levels. This discussion is different - it's about the same employee living in two different locations.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#722

Post by product50 » Wed, May 13, 2020, 2:42 AM UTC

acituan wrote: post #664

_nckn wrote: post #620

I think this is the hugest news yet. It suddenly opens the pool of candidates to all across the country. I expect other tech giants will follow suit. Those who previously can't afford or don't want to live in big cities like NYC/Seattle/SF because they are older, have families, or various other reasons now are included in the candidate pool. This can go two ways: either the local software business will have to compet…

I think you are overestimating the size of the eligible labor supply increase. Just for Google, for 2017-2019 the number of H1B workers sponsored was 22k. For the same period the increase in number of full time employees was 40k (couldn’t find the figure for US only but fair to assume majority is US-based). So more than half of the new employers are supplied internationally. Does the geo-unlocked US supply pose a sub…

Google files 6.5k H1-B applications per yr which includes transfers (https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2019-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.asp...). To assume all of this goes to new employees is misleading since Google has attrition too. So assuming 10% attrition, Google needs to fill in that 10% and add more employees. Your argument conveniently assumes that H1s are only going to net new employees vs. those that fill the gap too.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#723

Post by ElysianEagle » Wed, May 13, 2020, 2:44 AM UTC

sizzle wrote: post #710

acituan wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are overestimating the size of the eligible labor supply increase. Just for Google, for 2017-2019 the number of H1B workers sponsored was 22k. For the same period the increase in number of full time employees was 40k (couldn’t find the figure for US only but fair to assume majority is US-based). So more than half of the new employers are supplied internationally. Does the geo-unlocked US supply pose a sub…

What's stopping someone from moving to SF for higher comp on hiring, then getting a P.O. box or friend's mailing address in SF and moving back to work from lower cost area after some time? Is your employer really going to decrease your salary after the fact? Can you file taxes in your lower cost of living state after you lock in your high SF comp package and never notify your employer but still pay your taxes in the…

I’m guessing you’re being downvoted by those who think your comment is encouraging unethical behavior.

While I certainly don’t think it’s ethical to do so, I did wonder the same thing - would companies start putting measures in place to verify you’re working from the same general area as your initially provided address? Eg, sifting through VPN log files to geo locate IP addresses etc.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#724

Post by bachmeier » Wed, May 13, 2020, 2:45 AM UTC

product50 wrote: post #715

bachmeier wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just want to point out that there's no rational basis for this argument unless the employee in SF is much more productive. To put it another way, do you currently see pay adjustments based on housing costs for employees living in SF? Have you ever heard of differences across employees simply because one of them has a more expensive house?

Doesn't matter. An employee in Google London is paid lesser than the employee in Google SF. So while you can cry about injustices and rationality, salaries will likely be paid based on cost of living and even geography (based on London example).

> So while you can cry about injustices and rationality

Strange reply. I'm not talking about injustices. I'm saying a company would be pretty dumb to pay someone more just because of where they chose to live. Profit maximization and all that.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#725

Post by bduerst » Wed, May 13, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #711

alex_young wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of the valley has always been the hallway chat. You can't easily replicate that with a zoom culture.

> The value of the valley has always been the hallway chat. Is it, really? I always hear and read this, but I see very few anecdotes. In thinking through my own interactions, I'm not sure anything that happened in the hallway, break room, or at lunch table actually contributed much more to the bottom line than conversations I've had over VC and Slack.

At bigger companies it's almost needed. Harder to desk stalk someone who has been dodging you when they're remote.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#726

Post by nemothekid » Wed, May 13, 2020, 2:46 AM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #714

CyanLite4 wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day there’s a pay band in HR and while COL may be 3x in SF than Oklahoma, but either it’s 600k in San Fran or 250k in Oklahoma, which is nearing physician’s pay in many smaller states. Pay will go up in smaller states and pay will come down in SF/SV areas. People in LCOL areas will make top end salaries in their respective geographic areas and will see the best quality of life improvement. $250k in…

I just don't see why from a company's perspective you would pay two equally qualified/titled people massively different salaries based on the city they choose to live (which is completely irrelevant to the company). If I were an employer and one person wanted 125k and the other 400k, that seems like a no-brainer to me when they are both remote workers and equally qualified. If they offer to raise the person getting 1…

Companies do not pay based on CoL. The 400k guy is going to be looking at competing offers in that range. If Google decided they would only pay based on Kansas salaries, and Apple only hired local, why would you ever consider a Google offer when Apple pays 3x as much?

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#727

Post by nsoonhui » Wed, May 13, 2020, 2:47 AM UTC

neurotrace wrote: post #686

nsoonhui wrote: post #681

You can call me cynical, but Yahoo ( anyone still remembers that?) tried work from home, and failed. It simply didn't work out so well so the then-CEO Marissa Mayer had to ban it [outright]( https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/feb/25/yahoo-chi... )

That was a number of years ago. There's been a lot more investment in tools and practices for a WFH situation since then

Technology changes, but human nature doesn't.

The temptation to slack off is ever present at home, I doubt will there ever be any technology that can solve this problem.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#728

Post by xenophon » Wed, May 13, 2020, 2:48 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #711

alex_young wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of the valley has always been the hallway chat. You can't easily replicate that with a zoom culture.

> The value of the valley has always been the hallway chat. Is it, really? I always hear and read this, but I see very few anecdotes. In thinking through my own interactions, I'm not sure anything that happened in the hallway, break room, or at lunch table actually contributed much more to the bottom line than conversations I've had over VC and Slack.

Parts of the story may be apocryphal, but one of the most famous case studies of office design contributing to collaboration is the Pixar office. In the late 1990s (and to this day) the modal layout for larger companies was dividing teams into dedicated buildings by function withn a broader campus or office park.

Per the story, Jobs had the notion of designing an office that encouraged interactions between teams with broad open areas, communal social resources and bathroom placement in central atriums to encourage unplanned interactions between teams.

'Brad Bird, director of The Incredible and Ratatouille, said of the space, “The atrium initially might seem like a waste of space…But Steve realized that when people run into each other, when they make eye contact, things happen.” ' [1]

[1] https://officesnapshots.com/2012/07/16/pixar-headquarters-an...

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#729

Post by yojo » Wed, May 13, 2020, 2:54 AM UTC

spydum wrote: post #708

sizzle wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stopping someone from moving to SF for higher comp on hiring, then getting a P.O. box or friend's mailing address in SF and moving back to work from lower cost area after some time? Is your employer really going to decrease your salary after the fact? Can you file taxes in your lower cost of living state after you lock in your high SF comp package and never notify your employer but still pay your taxes in the…

Mostly the tax fraud parts of your statement. However I'm sure it happens

Would it be tax fraud if you’re still in California? You record your address when you file with the state, I don’t think the state cares where you get your mail.

I guess the employer could have some contractual terms requiring your address to be at some location. I’ve never seen that though.

Re: Twitter Will Allow Employees to Work at Home Forever

#730

Post by lumost » Wed, May 13, 2020, 3:02 AM UTC

product50 wrote: post #676

_nckn wrote: post #620

I think this is the hugest news yet. It suddenly opens the pool of candidates to all across the country. I expect other tech giants will follow suit. Those who previously can't afford or don't want to live in big cities like NYC/Seattle/SF because they are older, have families, or various other reasons now are included in the candidate pool. This can go two ways: either the local software business will have to compet…

You are wrong that FAANG companies will pay the same salary as you make in SF if you are in a low cost state like Indiana. I have a friend at one of those companies and they were running a survey to gauge employee's keenness for permanent wfh - and they were very clear that employee's salary will be adjusted based on which city they are based in. So, while this is still healthy, since FAANG pays pretty well, but don'…

Most FAANG have a high cost of living band and a regular band. The high cost of living band pays 15-30% extra for living in the Bay Area/NYC. Everywhere else pays the same whether it's Boston, Detroit, or the middle of the desert.