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The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

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Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#41

Post by inapis »

This is a well written article. For decades, the Indian society has tried to use engineering (along with law, medicine and IAS) as a template to success. Given the population numbers, it was bound to break sooner or later.

As an Indian CompSci graduate, I am excited for this bust to happen as soon as possible. Most people I know did not like studying computer science, are absolutely unhappy with their worklife and want to get out of it as fast as possible. Out of the 700+ in my graduating class of Computer Science, less than 70-80 are still associated with computers in some for or manner. Most fucked off to other fields, predominantly MBA. I hear similar stories from other Tier 2/3 institutions.

I can't wait for Indians to realize just how much easier it is to get employed today if you are willing to let go of the traditional path. Internet has unlocked so much opportunity and after 2016, pretty much all barriers to internet access have been lowered as much as possible. All you need is a computing device like a phone or laptop to get started. Doesn't work for the extremely poor still, but the opportunity for mass swathes of people have been widened much more than before.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#42

Post by throwaway158497 »

Tagnetially related. Because of COVID lockdowns, many consulting firms are shutting down. I hired an engineer with 2 years experience to teach me HTML/CSS/JS for one month. So fa I am satisfied with him compared to what I learnt on Udacity frontend nanodegree. I am paying him $100 for 30 hours of classes. For people wanting to learn stuff, this is the best time. If you want to contact him, email is in profile

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#43

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

I've noticed something similar in the US university system. I was a Assistant Prof during my PhD in CS at a state college. Students from our program went on to directly compete and get jobs over students from Stanford, MIT, CMU, etc. Our program probably cost 1/4 that of other "prestigious" universities yet we largely had the same outcomes for students.

Personally, I'm glad there's been a leveling of the playing field.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#44

Post by decafninja »

remmargorp64 wrote: post #7
mikorym wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have a problem with calling developers engineers . Heck, I would be offended if someone called me a developer rather than a programmer. But unfortunately even the degrees themselves become less significant. A PhD in mathematics used to mean more than it does now. But another point is that with global literacy going up, scarse skills are now not based on the amount of people with certain degrees, but rather wit…

Wait... so in your mind there is a distinct difference between a developer, programmer, and engineer? Because in my mind, they are all the same. How are they different, in your mind?

Where did the term "software engineer" originate?

The only anecdotal observation I had is that people in nontech, non SV companies use the term "developer". People in SV style tech companies use the term "engineer". YMMV.

The line is blurring though, as I see the term "engineer" becoming more common in nontech companies too. Just like how leetcode interviews are spreading too.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#45

Post by statictype »

drchiu wrote: post #37

Tangential question (which has been on my mind) related to this: I don’t have a CS degree. Background in something completely unrelated. But I’ve been able to make a living programming doing my own thing (bootstrapped online stuff). As a result, I never bothered to apply for jobs at established CO’s. For those who work in established tech start ups or tech companies, what proportion of your software devs have an actu…

It depends entirely on the company and their policies and strategy on hiring.

FWIW, I can't even remember the degrees of the guys I've hired.

Probably not even at the time I hired them.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#46

Post by duxup »

I felt similarly after a career change via a coding bootcamp regarding what perspective employers would really think about someone coming out of such a system.

I think bootcamps can work, but the incentives for those running them are off.

At the camp I'd look around the room and think that about half the folks straight up can't do the job, and "If one of these people interviews before me / or worse gets a job and bombs ... am I even going to get an interview?"

Fortunately I got a chance to prove myself with an employer and got my foot in the door.

But even so sometimes in casual conversation I just say "self taught".

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#47

Post by ceejayoz »

indiv0 wrote: post #17
jeromegv wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canada you can't call yourself an engineer unless you studied engineering in university and went through licensing. It's not really enforced in tech, but for me the definition is someone who at the minimum studied an engineering degree. Calling yourself an engineer when you studied Computer Science is a bit odd to me.

I'm fully OK with the distinction because of the licensing process and strict requirements on engineer-certified work, but as someone with a CS degree from a Canadian university I can tell you with confidence that my friends in the software engineering pathway had probably 90% the same course load as I did. Really the only major difference at our university (IMO) was that they had a capstone project they did as a gro…

The course load isn't the critical aspect, though, is it?

Licensing typically means professional standards set by a licensing body, continuing education requirements, insurance/liability rules, etc.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#48

Post by analog31 »

remmargorp64 wrote: post #7
mikorym wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have a problem with calling developers engineers . Heck, I would be offended if someone called me a developer rather than a programmer. But unfortunately even the degrees themselves become less significant. A PhD in mathematics used to mean more than it does now. But another point is that with global literacy going up, scarse skills are now not based on the amount of people with certain degrees, but rather wit…

Wait... so in your mind there is a distinct difference between a developer, programmer, and engineer? Because in my mind, they are all the same. How are they different, in your mind?

Truth be told, a lot of people with engineering degrees or titles are not doing any real quantitative engineering. Probably some sort of 80 20 rule in any field. Most "engineering" is just organizing and arranging things, fitting building blocks together. A lot of engineers stay "at the bench" just long enough to go into management. The people who keep their quantitative skills end up getting all of that kind of work.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#49

Post by cmckn »

umvi wrote: post #2

"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." Churning out engineers as fast as possible and pressuring everyone to become one despite lack of interest just guarantees you will churn out astronomical numbers of crappy engineers. And I hate to say it... but it possibly creates unintentional racial bias in interviewers because the sheer volume of crappy engineers being churned out from [Indian/Chin…

I've seen this bias in myself. I interned with several guys from India during college. I was an undergrad, they were grad students, having gotten their undergrad in India. We all went to the same university in the US. They weren't "crappy" engineers, per se, they just seemed to not actually have an undergrad degree in CS. Obviously I never saw their transcripts, but we seemed to be working from very different knowledge bases. I've since worked, as many of us have, with brilliant people from all over the world. It just gave me a weird impression of CS education in India. But, I'm sure others have similar experiences of graduates from [random school in the US or elsewhere].

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#50

Post by inapis »

analog31 wrote: post #36

I wonder if India faced a problem similar to the for profit college system in the us, where a lot of the programs were fake.

Yes. A lot of universities were found to be fake and shut down. Though it has been a couple of years since I've heard anything more about it.
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