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The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

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Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#31

Post by C1sc0cat »

HenryKissinger wrote: post #14
remmargorp64 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... so in your mind there is a distinct difference between a developer, programmer, and engineer? Because in my mind, they are all the same. How are they different, in your mind?

Not the person you responded to, but my $0.02. Developer: codes websites and apps. Programmer: writes computer code. Encompasses developers. Engineer: builds bridges, rockets, cars, missiles, smart tvs, gaming consoles, computers, power stations, electric infrastructure, water treatment plants, etc.

Designs bridges :-) its the navvys that build them

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#32

Post by [deleted] »

HenryKissinger wrote: post #14
remmargorp64 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... so in your mind there is a distinct difference between a developer, programmer, and engineer? Because in my mind, they are all the same. How are they different, in your mind?

Not the person you responded to, but my $0.02. Developer: codes websites and apps. Programmer: writes computer code. Encompasses developers. Engineer: builds bridges, rockets, cars, missiles, smart tvs, gaming consoles, computers, power stations, electric infrastructure, water treatment plants, etc.

[deleted]

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#33

Post by remmargorp64 »

rofws wrote: post #22
remmargorp64 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... so in your mind there is a distinct difference between a developer, programmer, and engineer? Because in my mind, they are all the same. How are they different, in your mind?

They're considered the same nowadays mostly because they've been doing overlapping jobs. Even worse, 'entrepreneur' is something that tells me absolutely nothing concrete about what the guy does. But to come to your point, in my mind - an engineer is the one who designs the software, a programmer is the one who actually writes good code to make that design a reality, and a developer is a blanket term for someone who…

But according to the dictionary, and engineer is a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines/machines/public works.

An engineer isn't just someone who designs things... but also someone who builds and maintains them.

Wouldn't that mean that even a lowly programmer who is just simply maintaining code is also an engineer?

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#34

Post by C1sc0cat »

WilliamEdward wrote: post #12
umvi wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I tend not to call myself an engineer because I don't have a PE license and never took a PE exam (though at one point I almost took the PE exam for electrical engineering). However, I was using the terminology of the article. On a side note, when people ask what my job is, I usually say "programmer" or "software developer". For some reason I just feel uncomfortable calling myself an "engineer", I think I fin…

I think you're right, it just feels a little wrong to claim a title so easily when others work hard in a specific practise to earn it and have standards designated by law for it.

Or know the right people - certainly in the UK its who you know not what you know.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#35

Post by cycloptic »

umvi wrote: post #2

"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." Churning out engineers as fast as possible and pressuring everyone to become one despite lack of interest just guarantees you will churn out astronomical numbers of crappy engineers. And I hate to say it... but it possibly creates unintentional racial bias in interviewers because the sheer volume of crappy engineers being churned out from [Indian/Chin…

> but it possibly creates unintentional racial bias in interviewers because the sheer volume of crappy engineers being churned out from universities has preconditioned you to think all engineers from there are crappy

You can't blame interviewers being racist on the bad actions of some university. They have to address their own racism themselves.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#37

Post by drchiu »

Tangential question (which has been on my mind) related to this:

I don’t have a CS degree. Background in something completely unrelated. But I’ve been able to make a living programming doing my own thing (bootstrapped online stuff). As a result, I never bothered to apply for jobs at established CO’s.

For those who work in established tech start ups or tech companies, what proportion of your software devs have an actual CS degree vs self taught? And is there some glass ceiling as a result?

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#38

Post by matchagaucho »

A lot of this argument seems to rest on this premise...

"Good coding skills (the ability to write functionally correct code) are possessed by 4.6% of Indian job applicants, 2.1% of Chinese candidates and 18.8% of the US candidates in the IT and software industries"

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#39

Post by demosito666 »

WilliamEdward wrote: post #6
umvi wrote: post #2

"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." Churning out engineers as fast as possible and pressuring everyone to become one despite lack of interest just guarantees you will churn out astronomical numbers of crappy engineers. And I hate to say it... but it possibly creates unintentional racial bias in interviewers because the sheer volume of crappy engineers being churned out from [Indian/Chin…

I was going to say the solution is to raise the bar for software engineers, but it seems the problem here is the culture around prestige and money which has prompted millions of people to go after programming careers. It's not easy to change culture. Still I think there should be some needed post-grad accreditation for software engineers if they want to actually be called engineers.

> there should be some needed post-grad accreditation for software engineers

Which will depreciate just as fast for the same reason.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#40

Post by umvi »

mikorym wrote: post #27
remmargorp64 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... so in your mind there is a distinct difference between a developer, programmer, and engineer? Because in my mind, they are all the same. How are they different, in your mind?

Engineer: Someone qualified with a B Eng or equivalent. In some countries this requires a masters level as well. Programmer: A person who writes computer programs. I would personally also imply that the programs are typically not deployment of other programs, but this is my own view and not a standard definition. (Actually all of these are not standard definitions. At least, not anymore.) Developer: A web developer;…

"hacker"/"cracker" are terms only used/understood with nuance in the tech community.

For the non-tech community:

hacker = person committing computer crimes (black hat)

cracker = a tasty snack (or, if you are in the American South, a contemptuous term for a white person)

tinkerer = someone who tinkers around with stuff (what tech community traditionally called hacker as in hacker news)

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