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Visualizing Electricity

demystifyingscience.com

71–80 of 93 posts

Re: Visualizing Electricity

#71

I hate to rain on your parade, because I'm deeply interested in alternatives for established models, and as a rule I strongly prefer intuitive visualisations over mathematical wankery, but this is just... nonsense. It has nothing to do with electricity in any sense. There's no matching theory that this is visualising. To begin with: 1) This doesn't explain why in general only metals conduct electricity. You used the…

Hydrogen is a great place to start with electricity since there is only one orbital surface/ electron-shell. The principles are easily generalized to the multipolar surfaces of metals. Metals are conductive because of these unique d orbitals. In general they have unpaired electrons, which means charge on balance. "To begin with"... 1) these are ionized hydrogens with delocalized electrons. 2) Capacitors build up volt…

At the risk of feeding a troll:

> Hydrogen is a great place to start

It is an insulator, so a terrible place to start. Simplicity doesn't help if it's oversimplified to the point of being totally wrong.

> In the vacuum, there is such low pressure on the atoms that their surfaces expand to fill the void.

I don't think you realise just how absurdly distorted the orbitals would have to be for this to make sense. The gap in a classic Leidenjar capacitor is about 1mm, or something like 4 million times the inter-atomic spacing. You seriously want me to believe that the surface atoms have electrons whizzing out to orbits shaped like a 4,000,000-to-1 ratio ellipse and then coming back to whip around a specific nucleus? You're... kidding, right?

> All those cyclotron measurements are electric at the end of the day

What I mean is that cyclotrons have individual, loose particles circling around. Like isolated electrons, muons, protons, or whatever. They're not atoms, but there's a definite current that you can measure in Amperes. The beam makes a magnetic field and everything. How does your "atomic orbitals meshing together" explain currents that don't involve atoms!?

> Batteries charge the terminals electro-chemically... Basically, it is the same concept.

The same concept as what? You haven't explained how chemicals can produce the electron shell rotations.

> What dynamos

It's another word for generators. How does an AC generator generate your current? Use equations please that predict the output current using numbers based on the geometry of the coils and the rotation.

> All materials resist current to certain extent

That's just plain false, superconductors exist.

> All these details deserve a follow-up blog at some point for sure.

They deserve treatment in the first post, the first paper, the first video. It's like saying "I've got this wonderful idea for fusion power! The actual fusion and power bit I might cover later, I'm going to start by waffling on about how the vacuum chamber has no air in it."

> Hydrogens that are ionized are not empty protons, they simply have delocalized shells

In no way is this true. You can separate protons from electrons and move them meters apart and they'll just sit there. This happens all the time in interstellar space where plasmas can have mean inter-particle distances measured in meters. There is no meaningful way in which you can point at a particle in one room and say that it "belongs" to a particle in another room and that this makes up a hydrogen atom.

> We don't think the limitless extension of the electron is mathematical gibberish

Mathematically it's perfectly fine. You can define fields however you like. Infinite extent, infinite precision, infinite whatever you like. The physical universe just doesn't work that way, there are no known physical infinites.

> We think that those structures are essential to other atomic phenomenon, including light and gravity.

If you can solve the problem of gravity, you can collect your Nobel prize. Unfortunately you have to start with baby steps, such as explaining how capacitors work without hand-waving. Use numbers. Run a simulation or two.

> the locked up gear thing isn't a problem for the multi-polar orbitals of actual metals. It would be a problem for a hydrogen lattice, unless it had a hexagonal crystal, with bent geometry...hm.

Hmm indeed. Look at the crystal structures of common metals: https://www.ggspdt.com/uploads/8/1/0/4/81043910/8970374_orig...

The close-packed hexagonal structure cannot transmit rotations in the sense of enmeshed gears, because it's made up of a bunch of triangles! Last time I checked, zinc, magnesium, and cadmium are all conductors.

Again, with actual metals, the "polar" orbits don't participate in conduction. Loose electrons do, and they don't mesh like gears. They can't possibly, because hexagonal lattices still conduct electricity.

Re: Visualizing Electricity

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to view each terminal on its own terms: when viewed from above, each rotating atom at the end of each terminal is rotating oppositely (-/+ charge)...this means when you bring them together they coincide.

Yeah, I understand that they are mirror images of one another and their rotation ends up being complimentary But if someone is at a very introductory level and doesn't know anything about rotational symmetry, the point that the terminal ends are rotating opposite directions may be confusing. The transparency of the render models might lead to someone hearing that point about opposing rotations, stare at those rotatin…

aha i get your point exactly. Yes, i'll see if i can't address those for future vids. Unfortunately youtube doesn't let you update vids so i'll have to include those points in the next vid on magnetism. thank you!

Re: Visualizing Electricity

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the main advantage over those models is that it uses atoms that are essentially shaped and moving as atoms do. Perhaps the gearbox of your car is a relatable phenomenon for you. The breath mints are shaped like gears lol.

Perhaps a better analogy is Newton's cradle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_cradle The ticking beads don't really move but transfer energy to each other. That's maybe a more useful analogy than the notion of beads or water moving through some pipe. I'm not a physicist of course but I get that what was explained to me in high school (many decades ago) was probably a bit of an oversimplification. Ticking bead…

Same idea but momentum is angular in our model. Like the gearbox of a car.

Re: Visualizing Electricity

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen is a great place to start with electricity since there is only one orbital surface/ electron-shell. The principles are easily generalized to the multipolar surfaces of metals. Metals are conductive because of these unique d orbitals. In general they have unpaired electrons, which means charge on balance. "To begin with"... 1) these are ionized hydrogens with delocalized electrons. 2) Capacitors build up volt…

At the risk of feeding a troll: > Hydrogen is a great place to start It is an insulator, so a terrible place to start. Simplicity doesn't help if it's oversimplified to the point of being totally wrong . > In the vacuum, there is such low pressure on the atoms that their surfaces expand to fill the void. I don't think you realise just how absurdly distorted the orbitals would have to be for this to make sense. The ga…

Not gonna dignify your ad-homs..but aren't u the troll here? Last meal for you: the model is perfectly compatible with all of maxwell's equations and basic QED. This is an illustration not a new theory.

Yes, ionization is interpreted as thinned, extended outer surface of the atom (e-shell). No physical reason it cannot fill a room if depressurized sufficiently.

Otherwise, show me a single electron. And then use it explain the concept of charge, not quantitatively but mechanistically. What other than magic holds it in it's path?

Until then, ionization is delocalized surface of the atom because that's the only way to rationalize the idea with physical objects (aka the atom), which physics ought start with. It IS the study of objects that exist. If you consider ionization this way, it clears up the rest of your concerns & I will happily walk you through the details. If you're not willing to take that interpretation we have nothing more to discuss, eh?

Re: Visualizing Electricity

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of feeding a troll: > Hydrogen is a great place to start It is an insulator, so a terrible place to start. Simplicity doesn't help if it's oversimplified to the point of being totally wrong . > In the vacuum, there is such low pressure on the atoms that their surfaces expand to fill the void. I don't think you realise just how absurdly distorted the orbitals would have to be for this to make sense. The ga…

Not gonna dignify your ad-homs..but aren't u the troll here? Last meal for you: the model is perfectly compatible with all of maxwell's equations and basic QED. This is an illustration not a new theory. Yes, ionization is interpreted as thinned, extended outer surface of the atom (e-shell). No physical reason it cannot fill a room if depressurized sufficiently. Otherwise, show me a single electron. And then use it ex…

> perfectly compatible with all of maxwell's equations and basic QED. This is an illustration not a new theory.

You may have misunderstood a few aspects of QED. It is true that the U(1) field of QED and gauge theory says that there are "little circulations" that explain all known electromagnetic phenomena, but this is at a completely different scale than electron orbits, and doesn't require atoms in general.

Re: Visualizing Electricity

#76

It's clear that a lot of work went in to this video and it's hard to hear criticism, especially of a labor of love. At the same time, I'd really like to see better analogies used for electricity, and that's going to require some very high quality work to replace the ones currently used. The background music was quite bad and distracted a lot from the dialogue. (While I personally usually like the sound of bagpipes, m…

Thanks for commenting. The primary problem with the other analogies is that they don't use real objects. Physics is the science that studies objects that exist, after all. That means we can't be crashing concepts into one another (like charge reification, for instance). It's important to begin physical explanations with objects instead of concepts, so we advance the atom. While this depiction of the atom isn't the en…

Analogies are needed to grasp concept and allow to do predictions. This visualization was meaningless for me. I can't predict what will happen if we make three point connection with different potential for example.

Re: Visualizing Electricity

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the hydrogen atom model (the rendering model) is ambiguous, which makes the rotation ambiguous Also, I feel like you have to have a good grasp of symmetry and rotation to grasp the thought that they rotating in different directions - the top part of the thing, closest to the viewer, is going right for both of them. Why is that counter or clockwise? Thank God I took quantum chemistry and think I know what…

You have to view each terminal on its own terms: when viewed from above, each rotating atom at the end of each terminal is rotating oppositely (-/+ charge)...this means when you bring them together they coincide.

I had similar problem. I understood how it should be from the picture but "opposite" made me think there is some phenomena there. I had to look closely to debunk it.

Re: Visualizing Electricity

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point I'm trying to make, is that there are light fields, and matter fields. Those are two distinct independent things (that can eventually be coupled). Electricity is mostly a light phenomenon. With the fields everything happen locally. If I recall correctly, one of Faraday main discovery was displaying the lines of the magnetic field using metallic powder. Showing that fields were "real" things. Two electrons d…

Faraday believed his 'fields' were what some sort of actual objects were doing. He called them tentacles IIRC. In our initial atom at beginning of the vid, the electron has tentacles based on Faraday to account for the tails of the RDF of QM — the indefinite extension of the shell. These will be important in visualizing the atomics of light and gravity in future vids. We ignore them for the circuit because they would…

At the extreme electricity works just fine without the electrons. Take two hydrogen nucleus without any electrons (aka proton H+). Throw them around and see where they interact and land.

They experience electrostatic repulsion, no electron cloud required.

Local classical Maxwell is enough to explain electricity no need for QM.

I think I get what you are trying to do : "making the Light field implicit". It's a tempting thing to do because when things are coupled we are kind of thinking : is it the electric field which deformed the electron cloud or is it the electron cloud which generated the field.

But this picture is dangerously misleading. It makes you assume strange electron cloud which interact non locally in complicated way (strange arms...). By giving special properties to the electron it doesn't respect the symmetry with respect to charge. Maxwell works just fine for protons. It also completely obscure the facts that we can have external E and B field ; in particular it makes you think that photons need matter to exist which isn't the case.

It is much more clear and general to make light fields and matter fields explicit.

Re: Visualizing Electricity

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm out of my depth now, but wouldn't this have the same issues in a rotating frame of reference? Surely, if position/direction is conflated, then rotation is too, no? Or am I way off base?

You have to really look at the Heisenberg uncertainty relation. Position cannot be sharply determined if we know direction (angular momentum). Speed is problematic too. The state of an electron (or electrons) in the atoms isn't an eigenstate of the velocity (or speed) operator, so no way to nail down the speed precisely. That being said, we chose to abbreviate momentum with rotation speed for our visualization. Reali…

Thanks for linking that spin paper earlier - I'm reading it and it's interesting.

With respect to uncertainty of angmom vs position - I would expect the pontryagin dual of angmom (which would be affected by the H.U.P.) to be angular density distribution, not "position" as such. Do you have any information on this relationship?

Also, do you know what the energy eigenstates of electrons in the fermi band look like, and how those relate to velocity eigenstates? As I understand, fermi band electrons that carry electrical current are usually not bound to atoms, but in a much wider (space basis) state, which I would expect to be closer to momentum/velocity eigenstates.

Also, how literal are you claiming the OP is? I've never heard this "gearing" analogy before, and I'm wondering if it's highly metaphorical or if this reflects some actual physical process I'm just not familiar with.

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