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Making Emacs Popular Again

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Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#621

Post by _vbdg »

6c696e7578 wrote: post #601
dmix wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 I was really attached to my vim config but decided to try out SpaceVim [1] (the vim version of SpaceMacs) after a stint using VSCode and after reinstalling my OS (before pulling in my usual vim .git) and I was surprised it was almost the same as what I spent years perfecting but with a far better and logical key mapping scheme that fit neatly across plugins + a nice programming language extension/layer scheme. It'…

Weird. I tried spacevim, via their docker container. First impressions were 100% CPU use after entering: int main( I'll stick to tried and tested vim.

If one needs a docker container to run a text editor, I think that says all that needs to be said about it.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#622

Post by Grue3 »

enitihas wrote: post #494
ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #366

New employee 1 workflow at company X: 1. Install VS Code 2. Click extensions and install language specific plugin 3. Work New employee 2 workflow at company X: 1. Install emacs 2. Try to install some source code indexing tool 3. Tool is missing 13 dependencies, so spend 4 hours finding, installing and configuring the dependencies. 4. Spend another couple hours reading non-existent to terrible documentation (documenta…

Or even better New employee workflow at company Z 1. Install the Jetbtains toolbox 2. Have IDEs for several languages with consistent features and semantics. 3. Minimal to no configuration needed 4. Profit.

Lol, tell that to my coworkers who take days trying to fix some problem with their Pycharm, while I just keep coding on my trusty Emacs.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#623

Post by erikbye »

smt88 wrote: post #429
quadrifoliate wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This view is obviously biased against Emacs, but I don't disagree completely with the premise. As an Emacs user, being "immediately productive" (whatever that means) is not your topmost priority. You mold your Emacs to a workflow unique to you, notice things you are doing often, add elisp functions to change it to make those things easier, and carry them with you from job to job. As your job evolves and changes, you…

> You mold your Emacs to a workflow unique to you, notice things you are doing often, add elisp functions to change it to make those things easier, and carry them with you from job to job. As your job evolves and changes, you maintain and grow your Emacs files over decades, and borrow from someone else's workflows. I've been writing software for ~24 years, and I can understand the need for this in the past. Now, I ju…

I think VSCode is a very mouse-centric experience. Using Emacs I don't touch my mouse. It's a far more efficient and comfortable (less straining) experience, for me anyway. I use both Emacs and VSCode but vastly prefer the Emacs experience. I also use Emacs for much more than simply writing code.

Emacs is also more pleasant to use because it's simply faster. VSCode is slow compared. I'm not talking about application startup time, but just about every operation you do. VSCode stutters and hitches all over the place. Input latency might also be worse, but I don't know, that's just what it feels like. It also lacks many of Emacs' powerful features like helm swooping, which is of course customized just the way I like it. VSCode's "search in all files" just doesn't cut it. And symbol fuzzy search is just for symbols, not all text. Code navigation in Emacs is lightning fast, with the right setup. My Emacs config makes a distribution tailored for me.

A great advantage Emacs used to have over other IDEs and some editors was that you would use it for all/any language. Now with editors like VSCode, which has great support for many languages, it has lost this advantage.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#624

Post by slightwinder »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #612
slightwinder wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs is as much of an GUI-App as Window notepad is an editor. They both have the traits what justify to call them, but also are both on the absolute bottom-line in terms of ability. The menubar is stuck in the 90s, the toolbar very very basic, even for the 90s. Window-Splitting is not even an GUI-feature and very basic. Only the tabs are somewhat modern, but also simple. COmpared to a modern GUI, emacs has barely an…

> The menubar is stuck in the 90s, the toolbar very very basic, even for the 90s. Window-Splitting is not even an GUI-feature and very basic. Only the tabs are somewhat modern, but also simple You're confusing GUI with Windows GUI API . That's like complaining that a game like Stellaris barely has any GUI, because if you force it to run in windowed mode, then maybe you'll get a context menu dropping down from the app…

> Emacs absolutely has a GUI. It happens to be drawn almost entirely from characters,

That's a TUI, not a GUI. GUI means Graphic, not text, even if it's spatial.

> And with third-party plugins, it has all the sophisticated GUI controls you could dream of

No, it has not. I've tried enough of them to know how poor they work.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#625

Post by random_cynic »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #389
ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #366

New employee 1 workflow at company X: 1. Install VS Code 2. Click extensions and install language specific plugin 3. Work New employee 2 workflow at company X: 1. Install emacs 2. Try to install some source code indexing tool 3. Tool is missing 13 dependencies, so spend 4 hours finding, installing and configuring the dependencies. 4. Spend another couple hours reading non-existent to terrible documentation (documenta…

This view is obviously biased against Emacs, but I don't disagree completely with the premise. As an Emacs user, being "immediately productive" (whatever that means) is not your topmost priority. You mold your Emacs to a workflow unique to you, notice things you are doing often, add elisp functions to change it to make those things easier, and carry them with you from job to job. As your job evolves and changes, you…

>This view is obviously biased against Emacs,..

Yeah, no bias in your comment. This is the kind of gatekeeping that is keeping Emacs from being popular. All of what you said works great in a "blog" and social media to get upvotes and +1s, but not in real world.

> Meanwhile company X will just slot in cookie cutter developer 1 and ask them to use VSCode because they are eager to get the developer to be "productive" on Day 1 for some reason.

This is not only insulting but ignorant. Have you looked at how extensible VSCode is and how most of the users are using it before you made your comment? Just because it is great outside the box, does not mean it is not extensible or the users cannot "tune their workflow".

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#626

Post by neutronicus »

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #366

New employee 1 workflow at company X: 1. Install VS Code 2. Click extensions and install language specific plugin 3. Work New employee 2 workflow at company X: 1. Install emacs 2. Try to install some source code indexing tool 3. Tool is missing 13 dependencies, so spend 4 hours finding, installing and configuring the dependencies. 4. Spend another couple hours reading non-existent to terrible documentation (documenta…

This is exactly what the IDE people say about VSCode

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#627

Post by Grue3 »

First we need to make Common Lisp popular. Since it's nigh impossible to write Common Lisp in any other editor, Emacs will certainly experience a surge of popularity.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#628

Post by erikbye »

ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #366

New employee 1 workflow at company X: 1. Install VS Code 2. Click extensions and install language specific plugin 3. Work New employee 2 workflow at company X: 1. Install emacs 2. Try to install some source code indexing tool 3. Tool is missing 13 dependencies, so spend 4 hours finding, installing and configuring the dependencies. 4. Spend another couple hours reading non-existent to terrible documentation (documenta…

> and this mode or that mode don’t matter because the slowest part of the creative process is the creativity and not your typing.

This is like saying we should just throw out every helpful thing that helps us write code faster/better. On one hand you argue for VSCode's OOTB experience (extensions which are MODES), and on the other hand you're saying modes doesn't matter when it comes to Emacs.

Why not rip out every helpful thing from VSCode, too, then? No refactoring, no completion, because that doesn't save time?

Why even learn to type with more than 1 digit?

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#629

Post by fallingfrog »

I still use enacts for all my coding (with cua mode on), mostly because I have yet to find another tool that does context sensitive indentation quite right. And I suppose I’m just used to it. But I don’t actually use most of the power features. I mean code is just text; all i really need is normal editing, and the occasional search and replace. I also use org mode for all my notes.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#630

Post by random_cynic »

xf1cf wrote: post #439
ipv6ipv4 wrote: post #366

New employee 1 workflow at company X: 1. Install VS Code 2. Click extensions and install language specific plugin 3. Work New employee 2 workflow at company X: 1. Install emacs 2. Try to install some source code indexing tool 3. Tool is missing 13 dependencies, so spend 4 hours finding, installing and configuring the dependencies. 4. Spend another couple hours reading non-existent to terrible documentation (documenta…

I actually like this viewpoint because I have done both and generally I disagree with you. But here's my take. I use VSCode often because its "just easier". The extensions are at best (in my opinion) ok approximations to what I can get with emacs. Especially for a language I'm inexperienced with in emacs VSCode is a nice integration layer while I adjust my configuration. Emacs (and to that point vim) is vastly superi…

Everywhere in this thread I see vague and generic statements like this. Do you have concrete examples of specific things in your 10 year old Emacs configuration you "labored over" that can do something VSCode (and its extensions) can't and which makes Emacs "vastly superior"? If so please share, otherwise don't bother. We have already heard all this vague nonsense for years.
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