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Making Emacs Popular Again

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Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#431

New employee 1 workflow at company X: 1. Install VS Code 2. Click extensions and install language specific plugin 3. Work New employee 2 workflow at company X: 1. Install emacs 2. Try to install some source code indexing tool 3. Tool is missing 13 dependencies, so spend 4 hours finding, installing and configuring the dependencies. 4. Spend another couple hours reading non-existent to terrible documentation (documenta…

New employee 3 workflow at company X:

1. Install Emacs

2. Sync existing config via git

3. Work

New employee 4 workflow at company X:

1. Install Emacs

2. Spend 2 hours learning default Emacs

3. Work

New employee 5 workflow at company X:

1. Install Emacs

2. Spend 1 - 2 hours learning default Emacs

3. Spend 2 - 4 hours googling interesting Emacs packages, in each case going to their GitHub repo to read the directions, adding a use package form to your config with the settings that seem best from reading the directions and testing it to see if you like it until you have a useful set of functionality

4. Work

You can probably spend plenty of additional time tweaking emacs to be everything from your mail client, your music player, your IRC client, insert task here but if you do this in the time you would be watching Netflix instead of the time you are supposed to be working you probably wont have trouble getting your work done.

I literally have no idea what you are talking about insofar as TTY settings, themes, indexing bugs highlighting bugs, or constant workarounds. I installed Emacs the graphical application, opted to spend 2 hours reading a book wherein I learned how to use emacs and picked a theme by searching for the string emacs theme and picking one that looked cool. I ran package-install typed the name of the theme, hit enter and evaluated (load-theme 'theme) in my config.

I have no idea why you would be running Emacs in a terminal in the first place.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This view is obviously biased against Emacs, but I don't disagree completely with the premise. As an Emacs user, being "immediately productive" (whatever that means) is not your topmost priority. You mold your Emacs to a workflow unique to you, notice things you are doing often, add elisp functions to change it to make those things easier, and carry them with you from job to job. As your job evolves and changes, you…

I’m not a programmer, just a tradesman who’s worn a few different hats over the eons, but I’ve noticed something as I’ve gotten older and lazier: I am equally as unproductive regardless of my setup. My productivity has way more to do with all the other factors at play than it does the fine-tuning of my setup.

In order to be more productive of 10s of thousands of hours one only needs to be slightly more productive to justify spending a handful of hours. 1% per 10k hours is worth 100 hours.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#433
post #270

> "Perhaps we should implement a mode that puts cosmetics on Emacs so it will appeal to those who judge by the surface of things." I'm sorry to react to first quote, but as I kept reading I kept coming back to it. My thoughts on that : how you present yourself is how you want (and are going) to be judged. In general I think Emacs has been user-hostile, as said here, just by its terminology. Nobody outside a minority…

When it was written, there were no widespread GUIs. Standardized keyboard layouts on computers were just starting to be a thing. Many of its users were using terminals, not workstations or PCs. So they adopted, and probably more often invented, terminology and conventions for a world that predated almost everything people today know and understand. So it's not user-hostile, it's just really old. The knee-jerk answer…

> So it's not user-hostile, it's just really old.

Expecting people to adapt to 1984 - which, just a reminder folks, is more than 30 years ago - rather than updating your documentation and maybe some keybindings to better reflect today is in fact incredibly fucking user hostile.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#434

Emacs might never catch up to Visual Studio Code, which is actively funded by Microsoft, but intuitively, it seems like Emacs ought to be able to catch up to Vim. It's always been weird writing Emacs extensions in ELisp, but it's not like Vimscript is a top-tier language. Emacs is hard to learn, but so's Vim. I think it comes down to performance, especially startup time. Emacs developers have never cared much about i…

> its reputation for "bloat." Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping. ;-)

This is a scalable acronym. It was upgraded to Eighteen Megs at some point in the 90s. And Eighty in 2016.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#435
> You are basically making a commitment to being or becoming a power user. I certainly would not have put up with it if I didn't think it was going to save me a lot of time as a software developer (and it does, everyday). I doubt anyone invests the mental effort to deal with learning emacs nowadays unless this is their goal.

> Terminal-based Vim is not like a modern application, yet is more popular than Emacs.

I think what happens here is that when someone decides they want to invest the time to learn an advanced editor, most of that subset of people end up choosing vi. Emacs is not approachable enough to appeal to people who don't fall in that group, and vi has more obvious productivity wins for someone who does enter that group, since its focus is on velocity-of-editing rather than extensibility, the latter of which is not even that unique any more (see VSCode/Atom).

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#436

New employee 1 workflow at company X: 1. Install VS Code 2. Click extensions and install language specific plugin 3. Work New employee 2 workflow at company X: 1. Install emacs 2. Try to install some source code indexing tool 3. Tool is missing 13 dependencies, so spend 4 hours finding, installing and configuring the dependencies. 4. Spend another couple hours reading non-existent to terrible documentation (documenta…

I largely agree with this and I wasted a lot of time in school and earlier in my career on these tools because of how often they’re positively talked about in online communities and positively compared to what seem to be otherwise obviously better tools.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#437

I've used emacs for maybe 18 months solid. I never found it had a single feature that my other editors didn't have (not saying it doesn't, just staying I didn't run into them). My other editors can be extended via scripts. My other editors (mostly) have keyboard macros, repeat, etc.. My other editors can be used efficiently keyboard only. My other editors debug various languages. My other editors open shells in the e…

One of Emacs' strongest points is its ability to nicely integrate things other than "just editing code" into your workflow. As the half-joke goes, it already has a mode for everything. So in that sense, your question kind of comes off as "I only care about basic features that every editor has. What am I missing?" With that said, even if we ignore Magit and Org, and just look at dumb code/text editing, Emacs has some…

> I've gotten used to undo-tree, and now I find it sorely lacking in literally any software that can "undo".

This feature is built in to all JetBrains IDEs (IntelliJ, WebStorm, PyCharm, etc.), most popular web wikis (Confluence, Notion, etc.), Google's web Office suite, and Microsoft's web office suite. It's available as a plugin for VS Code.

It's also built in to MacOS (Time Machine), Windows (File History), Dropbox, SpiderOak, and Sync, though some of those require it to be enabled and it doesn't work with keyboard shortcuts.

> The interactive insertion and inspection of unicode characters is also nifty.

When does this come in handy?

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It doesn’t. You still need to install and configure plenty of 3rd party packages and tools that are completely outside of emacs. For C++, things like cscope, ctags (or maybe etags or gtags), clang autocomplete tooling, etc. These, their dependencies and layouts, typically change from machine to machine, OS to OS, distribution to distribution and version to version. So placing it in your emacs config isn’t really…

Same for vscode? ex: if you want eslint, you install it from npm.

My experience with VS code has been a couple clicks for C++, Python (2 & 3), and a smattering of other languages and configuration files (YAML, cmake, etc.) on a fairly large (~1MLoC) enterprise code base.

Another click for remote editing over ssh.

No pain and most importantly no constant tinkering.

VS Code started very humbly a few years back and was useless to me because it only supported JavaScript and a couple other things with no plugins to speak of. It has since grown into a seriously powerful tool.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#439

New employee 1 workflow at company X: 1. Install VS Code 2. Click extensions and install language specific plugin 3. Work New employee 2 workflow at company X: 1. Install emacs 2. Try to install some source code indexing tool 3. Tool is missing 13 dependencies, so spend 4 hours finding, installing and configuring the dependencies. 4. Spend another couple hours reading non-existent to terrible documentation (documenta…

I actually like this viewpoint because I have done both and generally I disagree with you. But here's my take.

I use VSCode often because its "just easier". The extensions are at best (in my opinion) ok approximations to what I can get with emacs. Especially for a language I'm inexperienced with in emacs VSCode is a nice integration layer while I adjust my configuration.

Emacs (and to that point vim) is vastly superior to any offering VSCode has. The problem is you have to be productive. Many nights I labored over my emacs configuration to tailor to my job. I've done this for the last 10 years. It takes effort. To that, you have a point. VSCode is effortless. On that, VScode doesnt feel like anything to me except a bridge layer. Emacs and vim offer a vastly better experience (without the git politics!) if you're willing to spend the time customizing it. But that is the difference - are you willing to spend the time? Many developers are not and that's fine. But for a marginal additional investment you can have something better.

Something to think about at least. I can install my Emacs configuration in 30 seconds from my github.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#440

New employee 1 workflow at company X: 1. Install VS Code 2. Click extensions and install language specific plugin 3. Work New employee 2 workflow at company X: 1. Install emacs 2. Try to install some source code indexing tool 3. Tool is missing 13 dependencies, so spend 4 hours finding, installing and configuring the dependencies. 4. Spend another couple hours reading non-existent to terrible documentation (documenta…

> The fact that everyone has to have a non-empty, non trivial .emacs file means it is maximally unsuitable - for everyone. The fact that I have a non trivial .emacs file ensures that when I switch machines, I only have to transfer a single file to enable an identical development environment. I can't speak for VS Code, as I've only ever played with it a couple of times, but can I do the same thing there? I don't want…

I've never needed more than 2-3 VSCode packages for a given workflow. They're usually easy to find and at the top of the list when I search for a language. Settings live in a settings.json file in your home directory and/or workspace (the latter is so that shared settings can be committed to version-control). You can have both and they get merged, with the project settings overriding user-level settings.
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