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We Chat, They Watch

citizenlab.ca

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Re: We Chat, They Watch

#141

Post by kccqzy »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #98

It’s worth noting that Facebook Messenger also intercepts and filters messages. For example, it’s impossible to send a message containing the link “joebiden.info”. On the mobile app, it will simply say “failed to send.” On desktop, it will tell you the link violates its “community standards” and cannot be shared.

The differences are: (1) with Facebook it's a private company doing the censoring and there's no issue with that, no First Amendment issues at all, unlike WeChat where the censoring is heavily linked to the government; (2) Facebook at least tells you when a message can't be sent but WeChat fails silently.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#142

Post by stevespang »

krzysiek wrote: post #74

Looking at the comments I think that most of commenters missed an important point. It's not just that the app is tracking users, but the messages sent by any non-Chinese user help the regime censor the content for Chinese users. In other words, if you use WeChat, and you send a photo of something that happened in Hong Kong along with some text that explains it, then you actually help Chinese authorities to censor thi…

Can't wait for Elon Musk's Starlink constellation over all of China. Next will be stealth missions to drone in Starlink internet boxes "transceivers" to as many citizens as possible.

Will getting caught with one result in the death penalty ?

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#143

Post by russellbeattie »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #129
TallGuyShort wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you define the characteristics of a communist dictatorship that are relevant here? Not the economic ones per se, but the ones that make you nervous about spying and media control.

We'll I don't know about the US, but I imagine it would be pretty hard to make somebody "disappear" here in Australia. I imagine out independent media would help get the word out. Although we do have the "Witness K" indecent here in Australia. The media can't tell us much of that, but we do know about it. Sort of.

Also, if you're a Prime Minister going for a swim...

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#144

Post by ivalm »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #100
ivalm wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or not compromised, I am sure my messages on iMessage are not used to train censorship applications by the NSA. Messages on WeChat are used for censorship. I also, separately, think that in aggregate Apple has incentives to make iMessage secure. While Tencent has incentives to share WeChat data with CCP. These are among many reasons why the comparison was false equivalence. The world is not just black and whi…

> I am sure my messages on iMessage are not used to train censorship applications by the NSA What basis do you have for this certainty?

On the basis that there is no automatic censorship of user content shown to me via iMessage. I am highly certain that my friends can send me arbitrary (within technical reason) text and images and not get censored. This is not the case with WeChat in China right now.

Given societal norms I think there is a strong expectation that my iMessages will not be censored in the near future either.

This means there is little incentive for NSA to train and develop an actionable automatic censorship application.

Again, this is true even if they intercept, decode, analyze, commit physical action on the basis of the analysis, and store every one of my messages.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#145

Post by seppin »

fiblye wrote: post #121
yingliu4203 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Chinese-Americans have no choice when they need to communicate with family and friend living in China. No outside communication tools allowed in China.

Outside of China, we're pretty lucky that we can just register for random sites like HN with nothing more than a username and password and start talking. Every Chinese site I've ever used requires phone number or ID verification. Most of them only allow Chinese-registered phones, meaning it's absolutely impossible to communicate with Chinese people from the outside world, aside from a very small number of carefully v…

> meaning it's absolutely impossible to communicate with Chinese people from the outside world, aside from a very small number of carefully vetted services like WeChat.

I've never heard it phrased this way before, dangerous indeed.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#146

Post by idra »

yingliu4203 wrote: post #91
krzysiek wrote: post #74

Looking at the comments I think that most of commenters missed an important point. It's not just that the app is tracking users, but the messages sent by any non-Chinese user help the regime censor the content for Chinese users. In other words, if you use WeChat, and you send a photo of something that happened in Hong Kong along with some text that explains it, then you actually help Chinese authorities to censor thi…

Many Chinese-Americans have no choice when they need to communicate with family and friend living in China. No outside communication tools allowed in China.

"Have no choice" is false. Fortunately, email still works. As does any messenger through a VPN. Using Wechat is simply being complicit with censorship out of laziness.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#147

Post by lazylizard »

xemdetia wrote: post #128
fiblye wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of China, we're pretty lucky that we can just register for random sites like HN with nothing more than a username and password and start talking. Every Chinese site I've ever used requires phone number or ID verification. Most of them only allow Chinese-registered phones, meaning it's absolutely impossible to communicate with Chinese people from the outside world, aside from a very small number of carefully v…

Yes, it really is getting out of hand. If there was a reasonable equivalent that was an alternate (like an email address used to be), that would be one thing but even with a US phone all of a sudden your phone dies and you are completely stranded and even sites you used to be able to access are now no longer accessible because they are asking for phone numbers and confirmation of said numbers. It feels really awful.

Why not setup your own? Or use email? Stuff like deltachat works over smtp? Letschat is 1click deploy on heroku?

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#148

Post by MattGaiser »

dvduval wrote: post #125
MattGaiser wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is 80% of the way there with this guy already.

When I get "there" what would that be like? You are funny. But you don't know me.

> For me the best policy is just don't say anything that I would be too concerned about being shared

You embrace state influence in full regarding your thoughts and words.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#149

Post by cyphar »

Cyph0n wrote: post #138
cyphar wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with several aspects of your depiction of the US's "robust court system" (especially in the case of mass surveillance). There have been several attempts by citizens to sue the US Government for their illegal and indiscriminate surveillance programs, but have been stonewalled for years by government lawyers arguing that such cases should not happen in public courts (where they could be held accountable) due…

> But the key question is -- do you live in or have any connection to China? If not, then I would go with the CCP surveillance because there is no obvious mechanism for such surveillance to harm you directly. Tell that to the forcibly disappeared political dissidents, or to the Uyghurs who are being "re-educated" as we speak. And remember, even if you're not connected to China now , that can always change in the futu…

I'm not sure I see where we're disagreeing. Yes, if you have a connection to China then you should opt to evade CCP surveillance and there are many CCP policies which are awful towards groups in China. That's what I said.

My point is that if you have a connection to the US (as all 5-EYES and allied countries do), then today that has a more direct impact on your life than any theoretical future risk that the CCP will be able to have a direct impact over your life. The premise of this discussion is that you have to choose one or the other. I am well aware of the massive threat that is retroactive surveillance, which is why I would choose neither (obviously).

> Tell that to the forcibly disappeared political dissidents, or to the Uyghurs who are being "re-educated" as we speak.

Those are all people who have direct connections to China in some respect, and what has been done to them are all horrific human rights abuses. However, I don't see what that has to do with what I said.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#150

Post by fiblye »

idra wrote: post #146
yingliu4203 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Chinese-Americans have no choice when they need to communicate with family and friend living in China. No outside communication tools allowed in China.

"Have no choice" is false. Fortunately, email still works. As does any messenger through a VPN. Using Wechat is simply being complicit with censorship out of laziness.

Keep in mind that most major domains outside of China are blocked. Chinese services aren't going to be any more lax with surveillance than WeChat and have the same registration requirements.

You could maybe try registering your own server, but do you want to have the possibility of questionable messages being saved on a server that you own when dealing with Chinese authorities? Any "oops, sorry" goes out the window when they think you're actively dodging filtering to that extent.

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