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Making Emacs Popular Again

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Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#291
I'be been using Emacs for 17 years mostly for programming-related tasks. My opinions are:

- Emacs is an editor for people who think that learning some Lisp sounds fun if they don't know some already.

- Emacs should not bother trying to appeal to a more general audience; it's not an editor for most people when new to programming, and it's an editor for a very small minority of non-programmers.

- Emacs should focus on its strengths: it is the most powerful and extensible editor ever created. As long as it looks after that identity, it will always be highly respected.

- The infinite customizability via emacs lisp and the ecosystem of libraries is the only thing that can make Emacs more attractive than other editors.

- Emacs should be sleek, minimal, fast, and visually beautiful, by default.

- The customize interface is ugly and not a priority; it should be expected that Emacs users will configure things in Emacs Lisp.

- The clunky default icons and splash screen should be got rid of: present a blank screen with minimal tooling if a beautiful first impression cannot be created.

- Many of the elisp packages that ship with Emacs should be removed from the core, with users installing them as packages (Org-mode, Gnus, etc), leaving a more easily maintainable core.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#292
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a world of difference between releasing contributions under the same copyright (i.e. if you're contributing to a GPL'd project, release your code under the same GPL license) and assigning copyright to the FSF. I think that's the turn-off for many. It isn't a matter of 'what would you even do with' the contribution, it's a matter of recognition and making it much harder to change the licensing terms down the r…

What happens when the woke takeover of the SFS is finally complete and emacs is re-licensed under a new social justice license where you can only use it if you don't oppress minorities? I don't trust the FSF further than I can throw them and I don't trust them with my copyrights.

Agreed... that was my point. Specifically, it doesn't matter who takes over or what the changes are, only that direction/priorities may change and be inconsistent with the intent of the original contributor.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#293

Emacs might never catch up to Visual Studio Code, which is actively funded by Microsoft, but intuitively, it seems like Emacs ought to be able to catch up to Vim. It's always been weird writing Emacs extensions in ELisp, but it's not like Vimscript is a top-tier language. Emacs is hard to learn, but so's Vim. I think it comes down to performance, especially startup time. Emacs developers have never cared much about i…

Vim might be hard, but besides jokes about "how to quit it", it makes much more sense than Emacs. Emacs key combinations are weird. Discoverability is low. Even Vim will now tell you how to quit if you Ctrl-C it. Meanwhile I have opened Emacs and I'm trying to quit it (spoiler: Ctrl-x Ctrl-c). Some things are actually interesting and it tries to help at first but then it goes back quickly into emacs-babble that doesn…

vim sucks too but its ubiquitous from smallest container build to IoT device.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly what I mean. It is insane. I can't get it straight. I really tried years ago. But it is plain and simple stupid. Words once written don't need to be abbreviated. Abbrevation is only useful when writting for speed. When writting for being read don't use them.

> Exactly what I mean. It is insane. I can't get it straight. I really tried years ago. But it is plain and simple stupid. No, you're just being ignorant, and not reading when people try to answer your questions. > Abbreviation is only useful when writing for speed. When writing for reading, don't use them. It's not an abbreviation, it's a different symbol. C is not Ctrl. The software has some “baggage”, being the he…

You’re being an idiot. https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Mo...

C is an abbreviation for . You can map pretty much any key to any other key, that’s neither here nor there. M is for meta, s is for super, S is for shift, A is for alt, H is for hyper.

My control key is mapped at the window manager and terminal level. As far as emacs is concerned it’s control. If I map my R key to emit a control key code... C is still an abbreviation for control.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#295
post #22
post #2

Oddly, I think you will make Emacs appealing to users when you start asserting it is appealing to users. Few changes really needed. Just stop intimidating people before they get involved.

> I think you will make Emacs appealing to users when you start asserting it is appealing to users I've worked with a lot of Emacs fans but everyone describes it as having a hefty learning curve. If you tell people it's appealing and the first experience is unpleasant, all you're going to do is convince them that you aren't a reliable source of advice. I think it would be much better to focus on easing that initial s…

I would like to understand why vim does not seem to have this problem? I guess as stated below, it's just they way it is marketed. Because the way I see it, emacs is much easier to start out with than vim.

If I start emacs, I can navigate around the text with the arrow keys, the way I would expect from most other text entry systems. Then I can just type stuff. I can click at points in the text to navigate there, just like in notepad or anywhere else.

OTOH in vim it is nothing like that. Nothing is even remotely familiar. Yet there are much more vim users than emacs users. So I don't buy it that the learning curve is the problem.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#297
I'm not an Emacs user, but with all kinds of software like this, I find that the strengths lie not in what makes it popular but what makes it lasting. If too much is changed in Emacs, scores of users will cry havoc and switch to XEmacs (or something) and it will become even less popular.

Emacs has a stable core user base and as far as I can tell, it's recently getting some traction among a new generation who are exactly the kind of users that would likely jump ship as soon as a lot of "modernization" started happening. If they wanted something "modern", they wouldn't opt for Emacs in the first place. It's not like there's a lack of choice: IDE:s and editors adhering to current trends and concepts within UI/UX design are plentiful. They have sought out Emacs because it is uniquely Emacs and not yet another Sublime/VS Code/Atom.

Editors aren't exactly comparable to desktop environments, but when Gnome 3 was conceived for similar reasons of following design trends and thinking afresh, we suddenly also had Cinnamon, MATE and Budgie instead of just KDE and Gnome. Not that I mind diversity, but it's a fine example of alienating a user base. Now, consider how conservative an Emacs user of today probably is.

I find that one of the few things I still truly enjoy about computers is that there is stubborn software left for stubborn people to use. Slackware, Emacs, fvwm, xterm... Familiarity, not innovation. That's worth something, too.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#298

I hear a lot about the declining popularity of Emacs, but I always wonder how much it is overstating the case. As a tech enthusiast but (mostly) non-programmer, my perception has actually been that the "cool factor" of Emacs has been on the rise. Around 2011 or so, I hardly ever saw mention of it online. Now a day hardly go by on places like Reddit's "unixporn" board that someone doesn't post their slick setup with E…

My personal experience years ago was that there was a cool factor, and I learned it, and it's still a pain to use (compared to let's say VS Code), and I think that cool factor was just never a thing.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've misunderstood why someone would prefer Scrivener or a word processor: a rich-text ecosystem that "just works", in terms of WYSIWG / rich text editing; being the de facto standard for many non-technical user; and being more than "as simple as Markdown", but actively providing a tight ecosystem focused on writing. Is it possible to recreate some of this functionality in emacs? Definitely. But, it require…

> Your editor wants to add track changes and inline comments to your manuscript draft. How do they do that in your org-mode file? https://orgmode.org/manual/Comment-Lines.html > You're writing a novel, and it has extensive research notes, background material, and miscellany you're keeping track of. https://orgmode.org/manual/Tags.html https://orgmode.org/manual/Internal-Links.html https://orgmode.org/manual/External-…

To be clear, by "your editor", I don't mean emacs—I mean the person who works at a publisher: she knows that a gnu is just a wildebeest and inheritance bequeathal of wealth; assumes "C-c ;" is just an obscure emoji; and will not waste her time indulging a writer who uses an obscure [1], roundabout way of entering text into M$ Word.

Look, again, you're preaching to the choir—I use emacs every day. But writing a Python script to generate my org-native ToC to navigate reference materials is just...a very different, more work-intensive beast than an interactive drag-and-drop IDE tailored to the needs of professional writers. Impossible to approximate, with enough determination? No. Possible to start using intuitively within the first 15 minutes? Also: no.

[1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-...

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#300
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popularity means more users and more contributors. I guess most of the core emacs devs are greybeards who started programming in the 80s or earlier, so what happens when they grow too old? Who will replace them?

> I guess most of the core emacs devs are greybeards who started programming in the 80s or earlier, so what happens when they grow too old? Who will replace them? What makes you say that? I don't think this is true. Not among the package maintainers anyways, and also of note here is remacs - I can't imagine greybeards programming in rust. And popularity does not always mean more contributors, not when they are just t…

At the time Emacs was created, Lisp was one of the few languages that had automatic memory management and higher-order functions and error handling, but those have been lifted so often that they're now table stakes for modern languages.

I'm pushing 50 and excited about Rust because it's finally conceivable to have software that works reliably. I like Emacs, but it's not like I haven't seen my share of crashes in its kinda clunky C runtime. Hell, Rust even has macros.

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