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Making Emacs Popular Again

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Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#231

One thing is to make the keyboard shortcuts better. Get rid of the ancient and archaic method of Ctrl-C to start a command chord. Reserve that for basic commands like copy and paste. Instead, use the slash, Ctrl-/ to start a command chord. This way, you can use all the nifty shortcuts you want, and still not interfere with common commands. Another feature is to use Ctrl-Spacebar to allow a search of command aliases.…

> Instead, use the slash, Ctrl-/ to start a command chord This has an obscure problem, of which you were no doubt unaware. In the terminal, Ctrl-/ sends backspace. Emacs isn't commonly used in the terminal anymore, but it can't become useless in the terminal, and this change would make it useless. Unfortunately this is a non-starter.

Then use the dot: Ctrl-.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely true. However, if you can make a tool more learnable for new users without sacrificing its optimization for power users, you should. One way to do that is to not gratuitously invent new terms, and to use terms people are familiar with. Using conventions like "M-x" throughout the documentation, even with a note at the front of the manual that "We refer to Alt as Meta for historical reasons.", is nee…

I think maybe you're over-emphasizing the problem with this terminology. When I first started learning Emacs it took me all of 5 minutes to get used to the new terms, it isn't that hard. Maybe there's an argument for the lack of value of using older terminology, but again, I think this problem is overblown.

I'm not trying to say this is the most critical problem; I'm saying it's one example of many, and it spends a lot of "weirdness budget" without necessarily providing value in exchange. "kill/yank" is another example, and there are many more where those come from; the volume of them creates a "thousand papercuts" problem.

In the Rust language design, we're careful about what we spend our "weirdness budget" on. We've already spent a fair bit of it on terms related to ownership and borrowing, because those are fundamental and central to the language. We spent some on having a one-character '?' operator for error-checking, because error-checking occurs so often. But we're not going to gratuitously introduce new vocabulary for existing concepts that already have a name people would be more familiar with, and we're extremely hesitant to introduce gratuitous syntax abbreviations just so people can type a little less, because they'd be harder to read and understand.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet I could get a few things done in vim in a few minutes, and much more than that in a few weeks. And I choose not to use vim. And yet you said vim has insane key mapping but more people somehow use vim than emacs. Some things are not adding up. Emacs has excellent documentation but somehow very few people are able to use it. Some things are not adding up. Emacs interface and community mannerisms _are_ user-host…

Hey, chill. There are lots of things that seem daunting at first and unforgiving to the impatient beginner: chess, surfing, martial arts, drawing... it doesn't mean that any of those are user-hostile, it just means that those that want to learn and master it will need to develop a certain discipline. If you don't want that, fine. But what is the point of going around and saying that those who do enjoy these things ar…

I did not say they are stupid. I'm saying some communities build on pseudo-elitism. It's not stupid to enjoy using a text editor. It's stupid to argue that because it's hard to use (and hard to master) "you're just not getting it".

I think the expirement is over and conclusions can be drawn : emacs represent a tiny proportion of text editor's users, not because of a lack of features (is there's one thing missing it won't be for long), but because of what it is and the people and community around it.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#235
post #225
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to go to the next page (screen) of code, isn’t the keyboard just as comfortable? If you want to go down until you find the thing you’re looking for, wouldn’t a search using the keyboard be potentially more comfortable?

I like how I can control the rate at which I scroll with the mouse more easily than with the keyboard. It's a more intuitive movement that I can adjust to match the speed of my reading.

The point is that reading code from top to bottom is not a reason to need or prefer a mouse. Other people prefer using a keyboard and find moving through pages more intuitive than scrolling.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#236

Does it need to be popular or need more users to become maintainers? I use emacs because I can't imagine using anything else that has half the features and is harder to extend. I can't imagine why it needs to be popular. It's a programming environment that happens to have a text editor built in. That appeals to some folks but I can't imagine why someone interested in writing for publication would choose it over Scriv…

> That appeals to some folks but I can't imagine why someone interested in writing for publication would choose it over Scrivener or a word processor and why it's desirable to attract such users. Color me surprised! I'm turning into a stereotypical Linux greybeard but I must be true to my nature, and endorse Linux for writers. There's this famous story, about the secretaries who mastered Emacs and preferred it to the…

I think you've misunderstood why someone would prefer Scrivener or a word processor: a rich-text ecosystem that "just works", in terms of WYSIWG / rich text editing; being the de facto standard for many non-technical user; and being more than "as simple as Markdown", but actively providing a tight ecosystem focused on writing.

Is it possible to recreate some of this functionality in emacs? Definitely. But, it requires a lot of patience, exploration, and determination.

Your editor wants to add track changes and inline comments to your manuscript draft. How do they do that in your org-mode file?

You've received a .docx draft from a friend, or copy for your book blurb, or a press release for your upcoming publication. How do you edit that .docx and return it in better shape than you found it?

You're writing a novel, and it has extensive research notes, background material, and miscellany you're keeping track of. How do you quickly navigate between these multiple sources of content, marking things up, merging different aspects of documents?

I'm a die-hard emacser, and I do a lot of personal and academic writing in LaTeX. But honestly, have you ever had to reformat a LaTeX manuscript for journal publication? It can take hours just to get the damn file to compile.

emacs is worth the time, if you're inclined to tinker and invest the effort to get it to work—but for me, at least, that's a hobby. It's disingenuous to present it as a real competitor to industry-standard workhorse word processors. And most writers with a day job can barely find time to write, "investing time in emacs" is a nonstarter for getting things done! In fact, I tune my own org-basaed PIM system as a way to avoid getting real work done...

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#237

Emacs might never catch up to Visual Studio Code, which is actively funded by Microsoft, but intuitively, it seems like Emacs ought to be able to catch up to Vim. It's always been weird writing Emacs extensions in ELisp, but it's not like Vimscript is a top-tier language. Emacs is hard to learn, but so's Vim. I think it comes down to performance, especially startup time. Emacs developers have never cared much about i…

so - your 1st point of reference is vscode which is an electron app, and then you diverge getting into emacs startup time and emacs reputation for 'bloat'

this reputation by the way was 'earned' when entire computers had less memory than a typical emacs or vscode instance, and similarly, emacs likely currently uses less RAM than vscode due to afformentioned electron. Also: vi vs emacs 'bloat' wars were in reference to actual vi, not vim, which basically has the same non-core functionality as emacs (e.g. GUI widgets, editor-hosted scripting language) that was the basis for the original 'bloat' argument.

this is not very coherent.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Startup time can actually be really good if you configure it right. Stock Emacs is about 150ms for me. There is also a portable dumper that will save your Emacs boot Image to memory for faster loading. Also check this out. https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/f3ed3r/how_is_doom_e...

Sure, or you could use "emacs -Q," but all of those performance improvements are off by default, and it seems like they always will be. As long as that's true Vim will always be the quicker and easier way to modify a file.

nah, just wait for the next version of systemd, I hear everything will be fixed with systemd-weyland-kitchensink-emacsd

edit: am emacs (and nvi) user. just chiming in on .1ms vs 1ms startup time arguments as a basis for anything important

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead, use the slash, Ctrl-/ to start a command chord This has an obscure problem, of which you were no doubt unaware. In the terminal, Ctrl-/ sends backspace. Emacs isn't commonly used in the terminal anymore, but it can't become useless in the terminal, and this change would make it useless. Unfortunately this is a non-starter.

Then use the dot: Ctrl-.

^. just sends .

The ASCII page on Wikipedia does a good job of explaining what all these limitations are about. There's CSI-u mode, and I believe terminal emacs understands it if you enable it, but, yeah. There's a lot of legacy to support when your program is older than Unix.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#240

Emacs might never catch up to Visual Studio Code, which is actively funded by Microsoft, but intuitively, it seems like Emacs ought to be able to catch up to Vim. It's always been weird writing Emacs extensions in ELisp, but it's not like Vimscript is a top-tier language. Emacs is hard to learn, but so's Vim. I think it comes down to performance, especially startup time. Emacs developers have never cared much about i…

Vim might be hard, but besides jokes about "how to quit it", it makes much more sense than Emacs. Emacs key combinations are weird. Discoverability is low. Even Vim will now tell you how to quit if you Ctrl-C it. Meanwhile I have opened Emacs and I'm trying to quit it (spoiler: Ctrl-x Ctrl-c). Some things are actually interesting and it tries to help at first but then it goes back quickly into emacs-babble that doesn…

> The case for vim is simple: a quick editing of a file when you might not have a window manager up or on a terminal.

That, and the power of its keybindings.

> I don't see many reasons to learn Emacs when VSC, Atom or other editors exist.

I think evil-mode, org-mode, dired, and magit, make a pretty compelling case for Emacs to fit into many programmer's workflows, even if it doesn't displace their code editor or IDE outright.

Though even setting up just those packages requires quite a bit of configuration.

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