Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, it didn't. It peaked at $1900 for 2000, which if we take into account inflation is about $3000, which is still a 1/4th of the $12000 most proposals put forward. There'sno point in exaggerating these things, is tehre? 1982 $1,000.00 1983 $386.15 1984 $331.29 1985 $404.00 1986 $556.26 1987 $708.19 1988 $826.93 1989 $873.16 1990 $952.63 1991 $931.34 1992 $915.84 1993 $949.46 1994 $983.90 1995 $990.30 1996 $1,130.68…
Huh. I thought it was 10K at some time. Foo.
Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds
141–150 of 249 posts
Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds
#142Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…
Some people may not agree with me but I've always felt that there's an interesting take on our history: Throughout most of civilization, most types of progress has been the result of the intellectual work of an elite. Most progress in science, art, and pretty much anything comes from a "noble" or some kind of free man either doing it themselves, or directly financing someone who did. Most people today probably wouldn…
There are surely far more efficient ways of nurturing the next Newton or Kierkegaard than by spraying economy-breaking quantities of money around blindly. That's simply being wasteful.
Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds
#143The problem I have with studies like this one is that they only measure the effects of getting a stipend during a limited amount of time with a limited amount of people. It's not universal and it's not basic. From a non-scientific view point, of course giving people free money makes them feel better. But from an experimental perspective, they aren't getting the 'full package' of UBI. The participants aren't seeing in…
Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not saying that rent won't go up, but depending on the UBI scheme it probably won't go up 1:1. Rent goes up because there are more people looking for a limited resource in urban areas: if you want to work in the city you must live near the city. A UBI that isn't tied to location makes it easier for people to live elsewhere, which reduces demand.
On a smaller scale, we should see where older folks on Social Security live. They have a form of UBI and also usually don’t or can’t work.
If we did cut out the theoretical work-requirement and possibly stopped paying the rent and instead paid out money (but then quite a few people would fail to pay rent and we'd need another social program to cover them), this would be UBI.
So far, I haven't seen the explosion in creativity, entrepreneurship, volunteering etc that's usually promised. On the other hand, we're up there fighting about the top position in OECD countries for total tax rate.
Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can gladly talk about financials. - I have health insurance. It's pretty far from free, and it's mandatory. I wrote a very detailed guide about how German health insurance works [1]. It's not comparable to the US system, and I want to write a separate guide to explain this more accurately. - My take-home is slightly above what a full time minimum wage worker would make. My expenses are around 1400€ a month. It coul…
Ok. Thank you for the input. Google-fu brings this cite from dw: €1,500 ($1,700) per month gross for full-time workers, Germany has one of the highest minimum wages in the European Union. So it seems you made about $20k. Obviously, this isn't much money, so props to you for that. It is about double what UBI could offer (at least in the US) in a country with one of the greatest social safety nets in the world. Don't m…
Is anyone saying this is appropriate for the US right now?
In my opinion, the US has a long way to go before even beginning to consider such practices. The UBI is something EU nations can experiment with, not the US.
Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
Correct. An example would be to look around military bases or colleges that cater to the military. Rents are often on par with BAH (Basic Housing Allowance) and college's per credit hour is often near the $750 rate.
A key part of UBI is that the recipient can allocate the funds as they please. If someone goes to a college that costs $500 per credit hour, can they spent the other $250 on whatever they want?
Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds
#147I tried to explain in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23033922 ...why a UBI at the US federal level takes away freedom to try better ideas to do good at other levels, is morally wrong, is harmful, and that we can do much more good with persuasion, fundraising, letting states handle it (or smaller scopes), etc etc. (With down-votes, a thoughtful comment is appreciated; thanks.)
Hmm at a glance your comment seems to have a lot of normative assumptions baked in so it's hard to argue with anyone who doesn't share your beliefs. The comment seems to boil down to: 1. These list of behaviors are good 2. This thing (UBI) does not serve those behaviors 3. Therefore UBI is not good --- First of all anyone who disagrees with one or more of the list of behaviors will probably not be convinced by the re…
States and private organizations can do it better, but that is hampered when the fed govt takes so much of the resources (and, as I mentioned (and linked to more), it often does things badly.
And there is a scripture in my belief system, that if one doesn't work, one doesn't eat. God can provide, and this life is not the end (my web site says how I know this personally).
But even (to me at least) logically there is no inherent right for one who does not seek work to take resources from one who does.
The USA fought a War of Independence in the 1770s, in part to be free from control of individuals by faraway people, which to me is the same as the fed govt taking taxes and giving resources to others that I did not choose to give to.
Edit: If we were 5 families on one desert island, there is no inherent right of one to steal food (or the results of other productive labors) from another. If I plan and save and work hard, why does anyone have the right to tell me I have to support someone else who does not choose to live the same principles? (cf. libertarianism.)
Edit: UBI is like forcing one family on the island to support the drug habit of another (or whatever lifestyle choice, agree or disagree), only with federal power and inefficiency. Local-decision-making can do a much better job, because you have the chance of knowing individuals personally and help them. The public/private humanitarian and welfare partnerships in Utah are a good example of this (probably there is a link somewhere on my web site with details).
That is we we have states, aka "laboratories of democracy" who can then learn from each other.
Edit: as far as birth goes, rich vs. poor, I observe at least one private organization (my church, but of course there are many others) working hard (with affordable educational opportunities, financial help, mentoring, food, humanitarian aid, etc etc) to lift anyone who wants to be able to live, and have peace. (I also believe the rich are responsible to help others, and that we all will someday answer to God for how we treated others. Again, web site in profile says how I know this, in great detail.)
(Edit: FWIW, I have not taken a position on what should happen when the rich get too rich and the poor get too poor, nor how that should happen. I think the rich should keep in mind that that is what starts revolutions, though I believe our constitutional order is the most important thing of all (like more important than UBI pro or con)--such things should be done lawfully and our constitution allows us to work things out, hopefully at the state level first an foremost. But to support idleness is a bad idea as I have tried to explain.)
Edit: Maybe my reasoning is not as persuasive to you as it is to me, and certainly we are individuals with the right to decide for ourselves. That individual right I believe extends also to deciding for ourselves what we will do with the fruit of our labors, with few exceptions (ie for common defense, safety) written as powers granted by the people to a constitutionally limited federal government. Again, I hope we can leave the rest to the states to try things and learn from each other what works well.
Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds
#148I tried to explain in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23033922 ...why a UBI at the US federal level takes away freedom to try better ideas to do good at other levels, is morally wrong, is harmful, and that we can do much more good with persuasion, fundraising, letting states handle it (or smaller scopes), etc etc. (With down-votes, a thoughtful comment is appreciated; thanks.)
I guess the difference is I don't see it as charity, especially not a "forced charity". You're stuck in viewing things in through a lens of how private property works now. Why is it that those who own some land deserve a cut of the profits of that land? That land was stolen at some point. Who says that anyone can truly claim ownership of land? Isn't land to be owned by all? And the same can be said of much more then…
Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds
#149I don’t get the goal of trying to get more people to “work”. I would think increasing wellbeing should be the goal. It’s the pursuit of happiness, not the pursuit of hours worked. I’m sure the hunter-gatherers were upset the farmers weren’t motivated to hunt and gather too.
Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
"low paid" work doesn't automatically mean things people will only do given no alternative. Plenty of people want to work in jobs like childcare, nursing, writing, farming, gardening, etc because they actually enjoy the work and find it rewarding but they can't because it doesn't pay well enough to live.
Have you seen what childcare and nursing pay in Finland? Both require degrees, both are well-paid and secure. You may want to re-check your assumptions. :)