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Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#21

Post by notkaiho »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #9
pasiaj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct. People also don't seem to take up fulfilling and meaningful jobs /w low wages even with basic income support. One of the arguments in Finland was that basic income would encourage and enable people to take on meaningful & important NGO jobs and community efforts despite their low pay.

Maybe they volunteer? Maybe they turn to hobbies and music? Maybe they have a life? Not everybody measures the success of UBI as "How many folks can we keep slaving away"

This is what I meant - some sort of strings-free income is great in encouraging people to pursue passions and things that fulfil them. Turns out those things are not part-time precarious jobs. I'd say that's a finding worth understanding.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#22

Post by trianglem »

known wrote: post #14

UBI should be coupled with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-actualization

Not if you’re looking for an easy life. Self-actualization doesn’t always result in wanting to be a productive monster, it’s subjective and depends on your goals.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#23

Post by luckylion »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #17
luckylion wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe they volunteer? Maybe they turn to hobbies and music? Maybe they have a life? ... and maybe they want that funded by other people doing the work. Sounds like medieval nobility to me.

Be as cynical as you like. But people's lives are their own. Decades ago we dreamed of the day automation took the yoke of labor from our shoulders. Now that it's approaching, all anybody can think about is "Keep the lower class working! God forbid they have a life!"

> Be as cynical as you like. But people's lives are their own.

Are they though? Who exactly would fund the self-actualization adventures of the lucky recipients, if not other people? I'm guessing here, but I assume the funding wouldn't be voluntary. In that case, those people's lives are not their own, those people's lives (and the results of them spending parts of their lives at work) are shared.

> Now that it's approaching, all anybody can think about is "Keep the lower class working! God forbid they have a life!"

I live among the lower class. A good part of them do not work and still have a life.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#24

Post by onion2k »

notkaiho wrote: post #3

> "Aimed primarily at seeing whether a guaranteed income might encourage people to take up often low-paid or temporary work without fear of losing benefits" Turns out people do not, in fact, generally want to take precarious or otherwise unattractive jobs unless forced to economically. Who'd a thunk?

"low paid" work doesn't automatically mean things people will only do given no alternative. Plenty of people want to work in jobs like childcare, nursing, writing, farming, gardening, etc because they actually enjoy the work and find it rewarding but they can't because it doesn't pay well enough to live.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#25

Post by jriot »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #4

The problem I have with studies like this one is that they only measure the effects of getting a stipend during a limited amount of time with a limited amount of people. It's not universal and it's not basic. From a non-scientific view point, of course giving people free money makes them feel better. But from an experimental perspective, they aren't getting the 'full package' of UBI. The participants aren't seeing in…

Correct. An example would be to look around military bases or colleges that cater to the military. Rents are often on par with BAH (Basic Housing Allowance) and college's per credit hour is often near the $750 rate.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#26

Post by pasiaj »

protonimitate wrote: post #19
notkaiho wrote: post #3

> "Aimed primarily at seeing whether a guaranteed income might encourage people to take up often low-paid or temporary work without fear of losing benefits" Turns out people do not, in fact, generally want to take precarious or otherwise unattractive jobs unless forced to economically. Who'd a thunk?

N = 81 here also, so it's not really a full picture of what "universal" would be.

The basic income study included 2500 participants + the control group.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#27

Post by notkaiho »

onion2k wrote: post #24
notkaiho wrote: post #3

> "Aimed primarily at seeing whether a guaranteed income might encourage people to take up often low-paid or temporary work without fear of losing benefits" Turns out people do not, in fact, generally want to take precarious or otherwise unattractive jobs unless forced to economically. Who'd a thunk?

"low paid" work doesn't automatically mean things people will only do given no alternative. Plenty of people want to work in jobs like childcare, nursing, writing, farming, gardening, etc because they actually enjoy the work and find it rewarding but they can't because it doesn't pay well enough to live.

Have you seen what childcare and nursing pay in Finland? Both require degrees, both are well-paid and secure. You may want to re-check your assumptions. :)

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#28

Post by DonaldFisk »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #15
denzil_correa wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem I have with studies like this one is that they only measure the effects of getting a stipend during a limited amount of time with a limited amount of people. It's not universal and it's not basic. You have to start somewhere before being "universal" and "basic".

And that's fair. But experimentally I would like to see the effects measured for a whole town, a city, or even a county.

This was done, as the Mincome experiment, in Dauphin, Manitoba in the early 1970s.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#29

Post by JoeAltmaier »

luckylion wrote: post #23
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be as cynical as you like. But people's lives are their own. Decades ago we dreamed of the day automation took the yoke of labor from our shoulders. Now that it's approaching, all anybody can think about is "Keep the lower class working! God forbid they have a life!"

> Be as cynical as you like. But people's lives are their own. Are they though? Who exactly would fund the self-actualization adventures of the lucky recipients, if not other people? I'm guessing here, but I assume the funding wouldn't be voluntary. In that case, those people's lives are not their own, those people's lives (and the results of them spending parts of their lives at work) are shared. > Now that it's app…

Again, 1950's thinking. Most things are automated now. There's only 13M factory workers left in America vs 20M+ in the 70's, and population has doubled since then. So maybe 20% what there used to be. All that due to automation. And what's left is being automated as fast as humanly possible.

After that, we're gonna have a big slug of people out of work, lots of relatively cheap goods, and a few very rich who own most of the factories. How is this gonna play out?

In the best scenario, we go on to a bright future of little work necessary for everyone.

Or, we blame those folks for being 'out of work', let them suffer and die.

The bankrupt notion that somehow 'were funding those people' is meaningless. The factories pour out the goods. Nobody's slaving away to 'fund' that. This is the notion we have to get thru everybody's head.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#30

Post by protonimitate »

pasiaj wrote: post #26
protonimitate wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

N = 81 here also, so it's not really a full picture of what "universal" would be.

The basic income study included 2500 participants + the control group.

yep, but the conclusions were drawn based on interviews with only 81 of them:

> The researchers, who conducted 81 in-depth interviews with participants in the scheme, concluded that...

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