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Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#51

Post by nicbou »

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting).

I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great.

I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilometres to an appointment, and stop for a pint along the way.

I didn't stagnate either. My personal projects became my job. My work day started when I was ready and ended when I was done. With my finances already sorted out, I worked on things I enjoyed, not on potential startups.

Interestingly enough, life got cheaper. I didn't eat out as often, and cooked from scratch. I could afford the time it takes to be frugal.

Never in my life have I been so content with my situation. I didn't make much, but I had all the time in the world to enjoy life. Isn't that what people say they'd do if they won the lottery?

The second part of the experience came when I got a short work contract to finance a motorcycle trip. Suddenly, I was back to losing sleep, skipping breakfasts, waiting for the day to end, commuting and generally trying to fit life around my job.

I give basic income a 10/10, and wish everyone was given the chance to enjoy life on their own terms. I don't know if it's economically viable, but it's definitely the most enjoyable lifestyle I got to experience.

EDIT: this is getting a bit of attention. I'd be happy to answer questions publicly or privately. There's a fair bit of luck involved, but no dirty secrets.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#52

Post by akvadrako »

ashtonkem wrote: post #6
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't we already know how that works? Folks on a pension; folks in a state that provides stipends (e.g. Alaska); folks who are independently wealthy. Their behavior has been studied repeatedly, I imagine. In fact I'm confused why this keeps being 'tried' like its some new idea.

Alaska is highly underrated in terms of UBI experiments.

It's only about $1600 a year in a state with high living expenses. I don't see how that will tell you much about a full-on UBI program.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#53

Post by enaaem »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #5
BitwiseFool wrote: post #4

The problem I have with studies like this one is that they only measure the effects of getting a stipend during a limited amount of time with a limited amount of people. It's not universal and it's not basic. From a non-scientific view point, of course giving people free money makes them feel better. But from an experimental perspective, they aren't getting the 'full package' of UBI. The participants aren't seeing in…

Don't we already know how that works? Folks on a pension; folks in a state that provides stipends (e.g. Alaska); folks who are independently wealthy. Their behavior has been studied repeatedly, I imagine. In fact I'm confused why this keeps being 'tried' like its some new idea.

We already know how society looks like if a small portion does not need to work. But how will it be if no one needs to work?

An interesting case is Saudi Arabia that pretty much runs on free oil money. Saudi nationals are notorious for having bad work ethics, and they have to import many foreign workers to run the economy. To prepare the country for a post oil world companies are required to hire a minimum percentage of Saudi nationals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudization

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#54

Post by lovich »

radu_floricica wrote: post #50
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't we already know how that works? Folks on a pension; folks in a state that provides stipends (e.g. Alaska); folks who are independently wealthy. Their behavior has been studied repeatedly, I imagine. In fact I'm confused why this keeps being 'tried' like its some new idea.

We needed it. Truth is, we didn't know a bunch of important things before this study. In particular, we didn't know if people were going to work more or less. Quite a lot of people were hoping for "more" (or at least better), me included. It was a long shot, but if it turned out to be true it would have been a game changer. Turns out it's not.

why were you hoping that people would work more?

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#56

Post by devonkim »

hnal943 wrote: post #12
denzil_correa wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem I have with studies like this one is that they only measure the effects of getting a stipend during a limited amount of time with a limited amount of people. It's not universal and it's not basic. You have to start somewhere before being "universal" and "basic".

this study does not represent a step forward, however.

It does because it counters one of the top conservative arguments against UBI (or any safety net at all for that matter) because participants _increased_ their days of work compared to unemployment insurance. Too many people are of the "you work or you should die" mentality in the developed world. This makes some sense in some situations but not anymore either. Considering the hilariously stupid things that count as employment today, the concept of "work" must evolve for us to have an honest conversation on what the point of all these programs are for in the 21st century and beyond.

I feel this experiment is better framed as means tested unemployment insurance bureaucracy vs an unconditional cash stipend. This strengthens my longtime argument that means testing is punishing to the less fortunate because it robs them of the resource most precious to all of us - time and energy. I took unemployment before when I was laid off and it was pretty laborious and took me several hours to go through the hoops to file in the first place and the confusion of how to confirm I actually applied for jobs didn't help.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#57

Post by forgot_again »

Of course basic income on a small enough scale to avoid inflation improves recipients' wellbeing. That's not really in dispute.

The challenge is whether or not it is possible to actually implement on a society wide scale without net negative or self nullifying side effects.

One self nullifying side effect: give everyone free money -> prices go up -> everyone is back to where they started.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#59

Post by JoeAltmaier »

akvadrako wrote: post #52
ashtonkem wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alaska is highly underrated in terms of UBI experiments.

It's only about $1600 a year in a state with high living expenses. I don't see how that will tell you much about a full-on UBI program.

Used to be higher. Lots of historical data.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#60

Post by JoeAltmaier »

grimjack00 wrote: post #48
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, 1950's thinking. Most things are automated now. There's only 13M factory workers left in America vs 20M+ in the 70's, and population has doubled since then. So maybe 20% what there used to be. All that due to automation. And what's left is being automated as fast as humanly possible. After that, we're gonna have a big slug of people out of work, lots of relatively cheap goods, and a few very rich who own most…

> There's only 13M factory workers left in America vs 20M+ in the 70's, How much of that is due to automation vs. factory jobs being done outside the US?

No idea. But the trend (avalanche) is to bring them back and automate. That's what we prepare for.
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