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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#481

Post by jfk13 »

kd5bjo wrote: post #458
wojtekkru wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you consider company going public as change-of-control that should trigger voiding trademarks?

Defining what represents a change-of-control is probably the trickiest part of moving this from an interesting idea to a real proposal. Probably, the key factor should be whether or not the senior management and/or the board membership stays essentially the same; new management should be required to earn their own trust from customers that might not follow company news.

> senior management and/or the board membership stays essentially the same

Defining "essentially the same" sounds hard, especially if a series of "small" changes happen over a period of time. Ship of Theseus, anyone?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#482

Post by pjc50 »

kd5bjo wrote: post #458
wojtekkru wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you consider company going public as change-of-control that should trigger voiding trademarks?

Defining what represents a change-of-control is probably the trickiest part of moving this from an interesting idea to a real proposal. Probably, the key factor should be whether or not the senior management and/or the board membership stays essentially the same; new management should be required to earn their own trust from customers that might not follow company news.

Realistically that means no brand lasting longer than about ten years, and the total elimination of lots of century-old brands that people have fond relationships with. It's a stupidly excessive hammer that fails to address the real problems. And it's probably going to suffer the obvious free speech challenges.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#483

Post by aguyfromnb »

gonehome wrote: post #338
rapsey wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edward snowden, gag laws and the history of FBI/CIA is what any educated critical thinking person needs to understand why these apps should not be trusted. Apple and Google may have good intentions. But if there is one thing clear from history is that if anything can be abused it will be. Maybe not now but it certainly will eventually.

Sure - and there are nuanced/interesting discussions that can happen about the risks, but that’s not what most of this commentary is. Most of the comments are empty of any actual content from people who haven’t even tried to read about the protocol they’re working on. The protocol is designed by people aware and concerned about these risks (which is why the way it works is pretty interesting). A lot of interesting wo…

>The governments of the west need to be capable, but still protect the privacy of their people - that isn't an easy problem

You're right, it's a hard problem. And until these companies or institutions can prove that they are doing this, why should we trust them?

>who haven’t even tried to read about the protocol they’re working on.

The companies will collect and store the tracking data, and the government will, one way or another, have access to it. What is so difficult to understand about that?

"It will only be used for good" is laughably naive, as history had demonstrated repeatedly.

>If you care about these issues then you're the type of person that should be involved in solving it

Protesting and making your opinions known is way to help solve the problem.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#484

Post by pjc50 »

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

> I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a perfect example where the collective work of thousands of people over decades to save millions of lives just gets tossed aside because some celebrity 'feels' like there's a connection that isn't there, and in the process, the level of public harm becomes severe

This is not an accident. A great deal of work has gone into destroying public trust and the capacity of institutions to make impartial decisions based on data. Partly from the profit motive, partly for destructive political purposes. And a lot of people in the tech industry and on here actively support the right to destroy that work by posting the most thoroughly debunked and dangerous lies on popular tech platforms - again for their own ideological purposes.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#485

Post by HatchedLake721 »

choward wrote: post #469
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

> I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. As a person reading comments it's frustrating that an Apple employee thinks their company is special and should be trusted. It doesn't matter what you say, at the end of the day your goal is t…

Disgusting comment. A person is genuinely invested and passionate about privacy (and we know Apple’s stance on privacy, from Steve Jobs, to their stance with FBI, privacy tsars, keeping data on the phone, Secure Enclave, etc) and you call their work garbage.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#486

Post by mellow2020 »

alkonaut wrote: post #358

If you don't trust Google and Apple when they say their API does what they say it does, then you can't use an iPhone or Android phone. I understand that people are conscious about these things but what I don't understand is how people say "oh I'd never run an app using an API from google/apple, they have a horrible track record" and then carry a phone in their pocket with an OS from either Google or Apple, where thos…

> If you carry such a phone you already trust them.

I don't. But not because I think my dumbphone isn't also basically a mic I carry around, but because mobile devices are a joke, one and all. It's like moving back to communicating with infant sounds after I learned how to walk, form sentences and use tools -- why would I? Because so many people do, that they already assume everybody does?

I don't need e.g. Whatsapp to stay in contact with people I care about and who care about me, if I was only reachable by mail they'd send me letters. Anyone incapable of that I would surely dislike for dozens of other reasons already, so the question of "how to stay in contact even though I don't have a smartphone" literally didn't come up once since Apple "changed the world" in 2007, heh.

This stuff is just a very recent blip in our evolution as a species, and the phase we're in is about as impressive as the lies people told each other once they invented writing. It too shall pass.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#487

Post by gpm »

jfk13 wrote: post #481
kd5bjo wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defining what represents a change-of-control is probably the trickiest part of moving this from an interesting idea to a real proposal. Probably, the key factor should be whether or not the senior management and/or the board membership stays essentially the same; new management should be required to earn their own trust from customers that might not follow company news.

> senior management and/or the board membership stays essentially the same Defining "essentially the same" sounds hard, especially if a series of "small" changes happen over a period of time. Ship of Theseus, anyone?

A series of small changes gives consumers time to react and the value of the brand to naturally evolve, so arguably that's not a problem.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#488

Post by zimpenfish »

selestify wrote: post #479
blauditore wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WWII is somewhat different in that it was not secret what was happening. Speaking up on the inside is a much bigger step than just talking to outsiders.

What? The Holocaust was definitely kept under wraps from the general public until the concentration camps finally got liberated. Sure, some members of the public heard rumors, but it wasn't like Nazi Germany was doing it completely out in the open.

> The Holocaust was definitely kept under wraps from the general public

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard suggests otherwise.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#489

Post by redlorryyellow »

mellow2020 wrote: post #486
alkonaut wrote: post #358

If you don't trust Google and Apple when they say their API does what they say it does, then you can't use an iPhone or Android phone. I understand that people are conscious about these things but what I don't understand is how people say "oh I'd never run an app using an API from google/apple, they have a horrible track record" and then carry a phone in their pocket with an OS from either Google or Apple, where thos…

> If you carry such a phone you already trust them. I don't. But not because I think my dumbphone isn't also basically a mic I carry around, but because mobile devices are a joke, one and all. It's like moving back to communicating with infant sounds after I learned how to walk, form sentences and use tools -- why would I? Because so many people do, that they already assume everybody does? I don't need e.g. Whatsapp…

if I was only reachable by mail they'd send me letters.

Based on your comments above, I'd bet a lot of money that they wouldn't...

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#490

Post by mellow2020 »

taywrobel wrote: post #116
bduerst wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interned in St. Louis one summer and my neighbor worked at Boeing. The only reason I remember him to this day is because he introduced himself as a programmer working on smart bombs. He immediately said it was okay because he didn't fire the bombs, he just made them smarter so they didn't kill innocent people.

Is it a realistic expectation that we have no one working on smart bombs/weapons technology in general? I’d love to be in the utopia world where there is no war and the entire planet gets along. But even the US has political bipolar disorder, so we’re a looooong way from global peace. I do think we spend an absurd and inappropriate amount on defense, but as long as we are forced to develop weapons due to the global g…

> My problem is I don’t like or agree with the people picking the targets, but that’s a whole other argument.

People pretend they can't possibly know how things will get used, but this has never been true, and never been less true than today.

http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html

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