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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#81

Post by tomatocracy »

kristianc wrote: post #19

Somewhat inevitable that the briefing will begin tomorrow against Apple and Google that American big tech firms are deliberately frustrating attempts to fight COVID and wouldn’t it be better if we just taxed them out of existence. Shame, as a UK citizen I’m entirely supportive of the stance Apple and Google are taking.

I'm not so sure that this type of framing will work so well in the UK. I suspect a lot of the press will jump straight to "it's because Dominic Cummings wants to benefit his mates who do dodgy data mining". Even if that's demonstrably totally untrue, enough people will believe that narrative for it to become mainstream.

The fact that there are plenty of other countries who are content to go with the Google/Apple API will also neutralize a lot of this type of criticism.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#82

Post by Lukas_Skywalker »

AJRF wrote: post #25
darrenf wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the source code of these apps something that could be FOI requested There's no need for such a request. They themselves say " We intend to open source our codebase once the design is finalised " here: https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/report/nhs-covid-19-app-privacy-secu...

This is why I mentioned the time frame - this goes into trial EDIT:TOMORROW* (still don't think that gives much time to audit the source code) in Isle of Wight, and ITV news said it is going out to the rest of the UK Thursday - so its being installed without any code being shown yet. https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-52442754

Do you know where the app can be downloaded? I‘m interested in decompiling it.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#83

Post by taywrobel »

catalogia wrote: post #65
taywrobel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with that analogy. Palantir isn’t getting them more data. It’s helping them use it more effectively. The organizations already have all the data recorded. If you don’t like the data that organizations record, I’m right there with you, but demonizing the tools that allow them to access data more effectively is an absurd stance to take. Their system also does things like add an immutable audit log, or enforc…

The analogy seems apt; weapons dealers don't give warlords armies (if they did, they'd be called mercenaries.) They give the armies of warlords the tools they need to be more effective. The violent acts, killing people or holding PII, are still performed by the warlord's organization, but does that excuse the people selling the tools used?

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I just don’t think that complaining about a tech company when what you actually dislike is what governments or other organizations are doing is going to impact anything.

But Palantir has been the “tech boogieman” since before I even left in 2014, so it probably always will be. It is admittedly easier to blame a smaller tech company as a scapegoat than try to address the larger governmental or organizational actors that you actually have grievances against.

Just know it won’t do anything. The people who complain online aren’t their target market and never will be. And the paranoia lends way more credence to their dressed up search engine than it really deserves on technical merit alone.

So in a way the people complaining about it are making the issue they’re so upset about worse.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#84

Post by dkdk8283 »

threeseed wrote: post #62
dkdk8283 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contact tracing is a wet dream for five-eyes. I don't even think it will even be effective given the anticipated number of cases.

Stop spreading FUD. Governments have had access to your location and associates for decades via the mobile phone network. I've worked at a telco where we were analysing customer's behaviours and almost everyone follows a pattern at some point e.g. going from home, via public transport to work. The resolution isn't high but over time you build up enough samples to accurately determine exactly where they live, work etc…

It’s much worse than FUD: reality. Mapping known associates is significantly more invasive than location privacy.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#85

Post by karambir »

artursapek wrote: post #52
karambir wrote: post #9

Will be interesting to see if they can ban Indian govt. app[1] which needs full location access(clarified)[3]. A lot of people like this app(including me) but also know government does not have good track record in securing private data. Previously Apple were made to bend their rules when India threatened to ban Apple devices if they don't allow TRAI Do Not Disturb app in 2018.[2] [1] https://play.google.com/store/ap…

Why do you like it?

Mostly because it was released very early. And for a country like India, it may prove advantageous in coming months. We do not have any vaccine for Covid19 and can't be in lock-down forever. We have to learn to live with the virus for few months at least. Apps like these can help in contact tracing while allowing many to live normally.

Also I personally think the permissions(location and bluetooth) are fine for an app like this to really function. I have read someone mentioned on HN that these platforms prove their worth when >60% people are using them(I maybe remembering wrong though).

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#86

Post by pmiller2 »

TLightful wrote: post #33
jjgreen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that Palantir is involved, I'd not touch it with a long stick https://tech.newstatesman.com/coronavirus/palantir-covid19-d...

Palantir involvement? Yup ... I'll take the coronavirus, please.

I'll take 2 coronavirus.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#87

Post by iamnotarobotman »

jjgreen wrote: post #11
AJRF wrote: post #3

I've been wondering about the UK contact tracing app because they seem to be deliberately misleading saying that data is secure on the phone, yet it's a centralised model, and they are using bullshit terms like "clinically secure algorithm" to describe the one-time codes; Is the source code of these apps something that could be FOI requested from NHSx seeing as it is publicly funded by the tax payer? Also they've alr…

Given that Palantir is involved, I'd not touch it with a long stick https://tech.newstatesman.com/coronavirus/palantir-covid19-d...

  P A L A N T I R.
I would treat this app as advanced kleptographic malware after knowing that they're developing this app with the NHS to contact trace millions of people to 'stop the spread' on a centralised server.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#88

Post by pmiller2 »

taywrobel wrote: post #63
SSLy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll use an analogy: they might not be the warlords, but they are the weapon traffickers.

I disagree with that analogy. Palantir isn’t getting them more data. It’s helping them use it more effectively. The organizations already have all the data recorded. If you don’t like the data that organizations record, I’m right there with you, but demonizing the tools that allow them to access data more effectively is an absurd stance to take. Their system also does things like add an immutable audit log, or enforc…

I'd rather we not help our own government "more effectively" spy on American citizens, thanks.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#89

Post by Sephiroth87 »

chimprich wrote: post #77
dkdk8283 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contact tracing is a wet dream for five-eyes. I don't even think it will even be effective given the anticipated number of cases.

This is of little interest to 5-eyes. For a start, installation of the app is voluntary so if you're planning something you really don't want the government to discover, you wouldn't install it. Also, intelligence services already get call metadata so they know which mobile towers you are using and probably lots else. As for effectiveness, I think it will be useful. There have been several papers crunching the number…

Voluntary for now
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