Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds • Hacker News Board

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#251

Post by sandworm101 » Mon, May 04, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

>> saying colleges are unfairly withholding refunds even while they rest on endowments that often surpass $1 billion.

Not really applicable. Endowment funds ussually have guidelines attached. They are not for general use and are certainly not used for paying refunds. Much of the point of an endownment fund, as opposed to just handing over cash, is that the fund is protected from lawsuits by students demanding their money back, or anyone else making claims against the university. Endowed money is not the university's property.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#252

Post by fennecfoxen » Mon, May 04, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

0az wrote: post #239

0d9eooo wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not taught online, but I have a close colleague who was doing it for years pre-pandemic, and another colleague who did a bit of it and my impressions are the same. My sense is that major universities doing online stuff have video production crews (from Communications etc) and everything is heavily edited and redone. It's more like a television show than anything else. Much more preplanning, and interactions with…

One of my classes (mandatory writing GenEd) had an online version, so we get the videos from last quarter, and Zoom discussion sections. So no, we're getting lectures over Zoom at the UCs, at least. If my group of friends had the inclination to talk about serious school stuff, and not literally anything else that keeps our minds off of the state of the world , I could ask people about the situation from anywhere from…

n.b. your phone corrected `id` to `I'd` in your link.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#253

Post by Wowfunhappy » Mon, May 04, 2020, 7:14 PM UTC

fonix wrote: post #228

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #224

I don't know what the implications would be on finances / resource allocation for the school, but IMO everyone's education should be "paused" right now, including K-12. If you were going to graduate in six months, and the Coronavirus ends up closing campus for six months, you'll now graduate in 12 months, after you've had your due time on campus. And that additional six months of schooling comes at no additional cost…

really get's tough when the 'entry' point of those grades now has double the students (new incoming students; not those also repeating a grade), as people will want their kids to start schooling at the 'normal' (maybe this changes?) age.

Colleges have the ability to accept fewer incoming freshmen. And if K-12 schools were also delaying graduation, there would be fewer applicants.

One option for K-12 would be to take fewer incoming Kindergardeners, perhaps by moving up the birthday cutoff date. Parents can get over themselves; this isn't a normal situation and some shared sacrifice is necessary.

None of this is a good, but I find it preferable to the current status quo. Making sure students get the education they're due should take priority over meeting arbitrary dates.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#254

Post by battery_cowboy » Mon, May 04, 2020, 7:18 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #233

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #224

I don't know what the implications would be on finances / resource allocation for the school, but IMO everyone's education should be "paused" right now, including K-12. If you were going to graduate in six months, and the Coronavirus ends up closing campus for six months, you'll now graduate in 12 months, after you've had your due time on campus. And that additional six months of schooling comes at no additional cost…

What should students who were planning on graduating and finding employment do?

I hate this, but they'll have to cope, just like those who lost their jobs and those who lost family and friends.

It sucks, but the real issue is that there's no social safety net for these types of folks in many places, which makes my first sentence sound kinda uncaring, but there's not many other options.

The other major issue is that, for a lot of the students in college, they don't really even need the degree as anything other than a key to the gatekeeping tool used by employers. I'm not saying education is worthless, it's important to have a well rounded knowledge of the world, but you don't need that degree to be a sales person or a realtor or a welder or a carpenter or maybe even a developer. In other words, we shouldn't be forcing them to choose: degree or livelihoods.

This sucks, and I feel for everyone (I'm unemployed as well) but we all will have to deal with some discomfort, I'm really sorry to say that though.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#255

Post by panzagl » Mon, May 04, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

mhb wrote: post #234

The intellectually honest thing would be for colleges to give a prorated refund and make their case that the students (parents) donate it. Plus that would make it tax deductible.

Tuition is already deductible, if you don't take it as a direct tax credit.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#256

Post by forgotmylogin2 » Mon, May 04, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

starpilot wrote: post #222

Terrible HN comments in this thread...

Yours is the worst of the bunch. If you have a gripe with some comment, reply to it and explain why it's wrong.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#257

Post by izzydata » Mon, May 04, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

skocznymroczny wrote: post #11

supernova87a wrote: post #2

I remember wondering aloud at MIT/Harvard putting their courses online for free for anyone to listen to, and saying, well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? I guess we're going to find out whether the networking, friends, social aspect is worth it. There's also something about the competitive aspect of seeing other people in person do better than you or have better ideas than you. Which…

I know this might not be received well by the HN crowd, but I feel like the classes and networking are secondary, the main value of a reputable college is having a reputable college you can put on your résumé.

I think it depends if you actually intend to learn something or not. College is really only what you make of it.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#258

Post by mhb » Mon, May 04, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

panzagl wrote: post #255

mhb wrote: post #234

The intellectually honest thing would be for colleges to give a prorated refund and make their case that the students (parents) donate it. Plus that would make it tax deductible.

Tuition is already deductible, if you don't take it as a direct tax credit.

I don't think so. But I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#259

Post by kingbirdy » Mon, May 04, 2020, 7:43 PM UTC

psim1 wrote: post #226

I honestly feel badly for colleges and universities that went to incredible effort to accommodate students only to have it shoved back in their faces with litigation. You know who likes remote education even less than students do? Faculty. Advisors. Administrators. Lab techs. Basically everyone. Students are getting their full value and more, while wearing their pajamas.

My University is still charging a "campus activities fee" of $800 that is meant to cover our gym access, intramural sports, tickets to basketball games, etc. All of those activities are obviously cancelled, but they kept the fee. How am I getting "full value" for that $800? Not to mention the $18,000 in tuition which includes access to our libraries, computer lab, maker space, and other campus facilities, which again are all inaccessible. I understand financial planning for colleges is difficult and they likely couldn't refund the entire student body without the university collapsing, but to say I'm getting "full value and more" is clearly wrong and unhelpful to the current discussion.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#260

Post by psim1 » Mon, May 04, 2020, 7:48 PM UTC

kingbirdy wrote: post #259

psim1 wrote: post #226

I honestly feel badly for colleges and universities that went to incredible effort to accommodate students only to have it shoved back in their faces with litigation. You know who likes remote education even less than students do? Faculty. Advisors. Administrators. Lab techs. Basically everyone. Students are getting their full value and more, while wearing their pajamas.

My University is still charging a "campus activities fee" of $800 that is meant to cover our gym access, intramural sports, tickets to basketball games, etc. All of those activities are obviously cancelled, but they kept the fee. How am I getting "full value" for that $800? Not to mention the $18,000 in tuition which includes access to our libraries, computer lab, maker space, and other campus facilities, which again…

Local university put as much library material online as possible and is doing check-out-by-mail.

Computer clusters that were previously on-site only were reconfigured with a Citrix-like access.

Gyms, no. Of course not. Maybe a refund of those kinds of fees is reasonable.

I've been downvoted here so I can see that my view is unpopular. I think the university, at least the one I am familiar with, is doing everything short of welcoming students to campus in order to make the best experience for the students.