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Operating Systems Without Systemd

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Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#81

Post by stouset »

dralley wrote: post #69
wrycoder wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is not about the init system. systemd’s is probably fine. It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. And about a high-handed project leader who is paid by Redhat to do it full time.

>It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. You confuse Systemd the init system with Systemd the project. The Systemd project can be described as "GNU coreutils but for low-level system components". People hear about all the tools that the Systemd project maintains and think that all that functionality is built into the init system, when the reality it's >50 sep…

You know, I had to integrate with `journald` a bit ago and I was prepared for a nightmare after all the ruckus raised about systemd.

And you know what? It’s fantastic. The API is generally well-designed (if not without a few sharp corners) and the whole thing is incredibly well thought out. Sure, plain text logs let you use standard UNIX tools. But doing so sucks. God help you if there’s a newline in your logs or if you have to ensure that you iterate over all the logs even across restarts or if you need to parse logs back out from text into the underlying attributes.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#83

Post by wtallis »

microcolonel wrote: post #55
sliken wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly that it WAY more complicated than it needs to be, and it often replaces well written and tested tools with VERY poor implementations. Things like NTP, syslog, DHCPd, cron, iptables, mount, automount, handling /tmp, /dev, DNS, su/sudo, etc. Letting the init system talk to the network before userspace has the ability to setup firewalls gives me the heebie jeebies. Often the implementations of systemd don't handl…

Most of these things are simply untrue. The idea that homed is "incompatible with SSH" is preposterous. > Letting the init system talk to the network before userspace has the ability to setup firewalls gives me the heebie jeebies. Are these just random claims? The init system is userspace , and you can have any service wait for anything to access the network, including disabling the whole network target and triggerin…

> The idea that homed is "incompatible with SSH" is preposterous.

And yet, any honest assessment of the pros and cons of the homed proposal has to discuss the impact on SSH users in the cons section.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#84

Post by wrycoder »

dralley wrote: post #69
wrycoder wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is not about the init system. systemd’s is probably fine. It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. And about a high-handed project leader who is paid by Redhat to do it full time.

>It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. You confuse Systemd the init system with Systemd the project. The Systemd project can be described as "GNU coreutils but for low-level system components". People hear about all the tools that the Systemd project maintains and think that all that functionality is built into the init system, when the reality it's >50 sep…

I take your point, but it’s way too time consuming to extract the tentacles of the modules I don’t want from the OS and fix problems as new releases come out. So, I use Devuan on my servers. I don’t want to risk a rolling release distro being auto-updated - I like a periodic release that is auto security patched. Void is great for a laptop, where you care about video and music.

Yes, I’ve used OpenBSD. It’s great, but not for me atm.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#85

Post by tgbugs »

catern wrote: post #73
tgbugs wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life long Gentoo user here. The fact that NixOS other other new fangled package management systems are rarely mentioned in the same context as Gentoo has led me to wonder whether the new kids on the block have done their homework. I realize that Gentoo became a meme at some point, but it also seems that it might have transcended to the level of infrastructure. Thus, you rarely ever heard about it for the same reason…

>The fact that NixOS other other new fangled package management systems are rarely mentioned in the same context as Gentoo has led me to wonder whether the new kids on the block have done their homework. The Nix thesis[0] explicitly cites Gentoo multiple times; it's very much inspired by, and intended to surpass, Gentoo. [0]: https://edolstra.github.io/pubs/phd-thesis.pdf

I didn't mean to imply that Nix itself did not, rather that when I have seen Nix mentioned in other contexts where I might have expected to see Gentoo mentioned as well, it was not. The thesis probably isn't the best thing to link because it was written before both ecosystems evolved into what they are today, e.g. at least one statement in the thesis about Gentoo is no longer true (Gentoo prefix allows regular users to install and manage packages using portage on a variety of systems [0]).

0. https://gitweb.gentoo.org/repo/proj/prefix.git/plain/scripts...

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#87

Post by MuffinFlavored »

giantDinosaur wrote: post #54
justinsaccount wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linux world is busy getting shit done. Ignore the children arguing over init systems.

Ah yes, the attitude of systemd: deal with it, regardless of our shitty decisions, because you have to.

what popular distros have not adopted systemd by default?

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#88

Post by ac29 »

nrclark wrote: post #47
wrycoder wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is not about the init system. systemd’s is probably fine. It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. And about a high-handed project leader who is paid by Redhat to do it full time.

Agreed 100%. Systemd is a pretty good init system IMO. Service files are good, timers are good, dependency-based init is good. Easy sandboxing is nice. I absolutely _don't_ think that my init system should also be my bootloader. It also shouldn't manage my network configuration, or be responsible for controlling the system clock. And it shouldn't assert control of my home folders. And it shouldn't be spidering its wa…

So dont use it all? I dont, and would have to go out of my way to use some of it. It's like saying you don't like GNOME because you don't like it's PDF viewer.

The best thing about Linux is that you are free to pick and choose even low level components of the system as much as you'd like.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#89

Post by ac29 »

wrycoder wrote: post #32
justinsaccount wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linux world is busy getting shit done. Ignore the children arguing over init systems.

The argument is not about the init system. systemd’s is probably fine. It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. And about a high-handed project leader who is paid by Redhat to do it full time.

> the Unix way

This gets pulled out far too often. Systemd is a family of projects thast are largely modular and independent, not a single binary that takes over everything. Each part's goal is to do one thing, and you're free to take or leave each piece.

By this logic, Bell Labs should have never worked on UNIX or C - they were a telephone company!

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#90

Post by teleforce »

oehtXRwMkIs wrote: post #16
edoceo wrote: post #5

Sad Gentoo didn't get more mention. Been using that w/OpenRC since before systemd existed and it's still my solid daily driver.

I found that extremely strange. Along with Void it's pretty much the go-to distro for people that don't want systemd.

Imagine an imaginary conversation for the reason behind choosing a distribution name.

1 - Can we name our distro Void.

2 - Why?

1 - Since it devoids of systemd

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