Operating Systems Without Systemd • Hacker News Board

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#41

Post by dogecoinbase » Sat, May 02, 2020, 2:20 AM UTC

tssva wrote: post #37

wrycoder wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is not about the init system. systemd’s is probably fine. It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. And about a high-handed project leader who is paid by Redhat to do it full time.

If the issue is a single module take over of userspace then I have good news for you. The systemd project is made up of multiple modules handling differing tasks not all of which you have to use.

Modules which only work with their own other modules and fail to work with other people's modules aren't modules, they're a monolith.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#42

Post by simcop2387 » Sat, May 02, 2020, 2:20 AM UTC

yarrel wrote: post #21

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, systemd timers (timed systemctl services) are like cron if cron was slightly more complicated and had very good logging. :3

journalctl is a text adventure fever dream. Do systemd timers use a different logging system?

Nope, they go straight to journald.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#43

Post by Brian_K_White » Sat, May 02, 2020, 2:23 AM UTC

justinsaccount wrote: post #8

k__ wrote: post #2

I think, that sums up what's wrong with the Linux world right now. NixOS and GuixSD being the next generation of distributions and people are calling it "neat project with some unique features, but it is more fun as an intellectual curiosity than as something practical" while arguing if a distribution should use Systemd or not...

The linux world is busy getting shit done. Ignore the children arguing over init systems.

It's rarely the adult in the room who calls other people names like children.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#44

Post by yjftsjthsd-h » Sat, May 02, 2020, 2:24 AM UTC

bhawks wrote: post #3

Android - anyone? Android is linux, it's init is simple and the user experience obviously successful. There is a ton here for other distros to learn and improve on.

> and the user experience obviously successful

That's... one point of view. Another is that Android is very successful at content consumption while falling short at more complex workflows, possessing a remarkably fragmented ecosystem, failing to deliver security updates to most of its users in a reasonable timeframe if at all, and possessing little to no flexibility at the lower layers (ex. supporting BTRFS or ZFS).

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#45

Post by yjftsjthsd-h » Sat, May 02, 2020, 2:26 AM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #13

bhawks wrote: post #3

Android - anyone? Android is linux, it's init is simple and the user experience obviously successful. There is a ton here for other distros to learn and improve on.

Typically when “Linux” is used without qualification, it means a GNU-based system; i.e., not Android.

Or at least a unix-like Linux (which I mention only because Alpine is a decently popular non-GNU distro; I've taken to calling it Busybox/Linux).

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#46

Post by fuball63 » Sat, May 02, 2020, 2:28 AM UTC

coleifer wrote: post #17

OpenBSD dabs on this list from the towering arches of the heavens.

I was surprised none of the bsd flavors, freebsd, netbsd, openbsd weren't on the list. Your comment phrasing made me chuckle too.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#47

Post by nrclark » Sat, May 02, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

wrycoder wrote: post #32

justinsaccount wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linux world is busy getting shit done. Ignore the children arguing over init systems.

The argument is not about the init system. systemd’s is probably fine. It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. And about a high-handed project leader who is paid by Redhat to do it full time.

Agreed 100%. Systemd is a pretty good init system IMO. Service files are good, timers are good, dependency-based init is good. Easy sandboxing is nice.

I absolutely _don't_ think that my init system should also be my bootloader.

It also shouldn't manage my network configuration, or be responsible for controlling the system clock.

And it shouldn't assert control of my home folders.

And it shouldn't be spidering its way into the Gnome login manager, which grew a systemd dependency a couple of years ago.

My problem with systemd isn't pid 1. It's all the rest of the shovelware that comes along for the ride. And it's the "you'll use what we tell you to use" attitude of the project.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#48

Post by catblast » Sat, May 02, 2020, 2:30 AM UTC

wrycoder wrote: post #32

justinsaccount wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linux world is busy getting shit done. Ignore the children arguing over init systems.

The argument is not about the init system. systemd’s is probably fine. It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. And about a high-handed project leader who is paid by Redhat to do it full time.

> by a single module, which is not the Unix way.

Kind of ironic when one of the oft touted complaints I recall about Linux vs the BSDs or virtually any historical Unix is how the userspace and kernel are not one integrated distribution.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#49

Post by jonny383 » Sat, May 02, 2020, 2:34 AM UTC

wrycoder wrote: post #32

justinsaccount wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The linux world is busy getting shit done. Ignore the children arguing over init systems.

The argument is not about the init system. systemd’s is probably fine. It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. And about a high-handed project leader who is paid by Redhat to do it full time.

I see a bunch of people in these threads complaining about change in Linux, but this is exactly all they do - _complain_.

I don't see any of these people making better contributions. It's easier to sit there and insult the project leader for being paid by RedHat - but let's face it. Without commercial sponsorship, Linux would be dead.

So quit your whining. If you all ready don't like systemd that much - why don't you implement a better alternative - as you all seem to have the answers.

Re: Operating Systems Without Systemd

#50

Post by Brian_K_White » Sat, May 02, 2020, 2:37 AM UTC

oehtXRwMkIs wrote: post #16

edoceo wrote: post #5

Sad Gentoo didn't get more mention. Been using that w/OpenRC since before systemd existed and it's still my solid daily driver.

I found that extremely strange. Along with Void it's pretty much the go-to distro for people that don't want systemd.

I took the point of the article to highlight the interesting items.

Who hasn't heard of, and even know the elevator pitch for Gentoo? For decades already no less.

It's great, and it obviously qualifies to be in the full list, but it's not interesting or novel to anyone who already uses unix-like os's other than osx.