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Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

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Re: Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

#41

I loved POV-Ray in the 1990s and early 2000s. The thing is—it’s ridiculous to try and make something remotely complicated or organic with POV-Ray, unless you are using some modeling program that can export to POV-Ray format. POV-Ray scenes were dominated by procedural textures and geometric primitives, for the most part. The rendering engine was very strong, and supported all sorts of features like area lighting, dep…

I really loved this aspect of POV-Ray back then. As a "normal" programmer it was really nice to be able to script very complex scenes procedurally. E.g. https://vimeo.com/105317159

Re: Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

#42
post #40
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, I'm tired of these kids saying PovRay coudn't do shit as if PovRay had in 1997 the same capabilities of an Irix machine from 1987. They couldn't even be more wrong with that. I remember seeing photoreallistic images made with PovRay in 1997 you coudn't even do with a GPU today in real time. Kids today have a lot of ignorance on the 90's technologies, guess why they confuse the 80's and the 90's a lot thanks to t…

> From 30Mhz and 5 1/4 floppies to ~450/600 MHZ a bunch of GB in 1999. From rare instances of people accessing their local BBS at 9600 Baud to accessing a worldwide communications network as a matter of course, often at broadband speed. The past 20 years really have been rather dull in comparison.

ISDN was a good boost over a 56k modem too. Not DSL speeds, but bearable. With Opera and its proxy (and its awesome cacheing options) you had a pretty smooth browsing, almost a clone of DSL speed and usability standards.

Re: Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

#43
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pragmatically, I think the real issue is editor tooling. Polygons are much simpler to subdivide and edit and are perfect for real-time interaction, at least much better for high-complexity scenes. At render time, though, you need to use a bunch of extra tricks to get the right smoothing - bump/texture mapping, increased subdivision, etc. But some of these other models might actually decrease the scene complexity and…

It isn't just tooling. > At render time, though, you need to use a bunch of extra tricks to get the right smoothing Nurbs or any smooth geometry needs to be subdivided too. You can set levels, max size of polygons, smoothness constraints subdivide based on the pixel size from the camera projection or any combination. In practice this is not a problem for polygons or nurbs. > - bump/texture mapping, This is orthogonal…

> Nurbs or any smooth geometry needs to be subdivided too

Not true; lots of smooth surfaces, including NURBS, can be and are ray traced without subdividing.

> Polygonal geometry, even subdivided, is typically not a big part of memory or time in rendering in all but the most pathological cases.

I don’t buy this either, speaking from experience using multiple commercial renderers. It is true that texture is larger, but not true that polygonal geometry is not a big part of memory consumption. RenderMan, for example, does adaptive tessellation of displacement mapped surfaces because they will run out of memory with a uniform displacement.

The balance of geometry vs texture usages is also changing right now with GPU ray tracers, and geometry is taking up a larger portion because it has to be resident for intersection, while textures can be paged.

Re: Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

#44

If anyone is interested in getting started on Ray Tracing _today_. I recommend Peter Shirley's _Ray Tracing In One Weekend_ Series. https://raytracing.github.io/ (I edited the later editions)

Real Time Rendering maintains a list of high quality free resources including "Ray Tracing: In One Weekend" http://www.realtimerendering.com/#intro

Re: Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

#45
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree the quality of the render engine is much better with physical rendering, but I still love constructive solid geometry and the ideal of pure curves to define the scene geometry. All these meshes with their triangles! Whatever happened to using NURBS or metaballs or other non-polygonal modeling?

Polygons can be smoother and subdivided efficiently at render time without artifacts, which is how they are used now. Nurbs and other curved surface representations end up with huge problems pragmatically when it comes to tools, workflow, visualization, texture coordinates, keeping the surfaces together etc. The list is long. Polygons are very simple in all these areas and can be made smooth at render time so you get…

This seems like a strange way to frame it. Polygons aren’t what get subdivided. Subdivision surfaces & NURBS are what get subdivided, and those are routinely used in production and have tooling. Polygons by themselves don’t get any smoother or provide the advantages you’re talking about, nor do they solve all problems of workflow, tex coords, stitching, etc.

Re: Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

#46
post #28
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what do you subdivide it to? How do you trace rays against it? How do you map textures on to it? How do you visualize it in real time? How do you work with it in a different program?

You don't subdivide. It's a mathematical intersection.

Right, but the rest of the questions remain, along with the usefulness of CSG in real scenarios. CSG can be interesting, but it does end up being very impractical for anything except for some specific effects that are then turned into polygons. It is technically possible to create sdfs and trace against those I'm sure, but csg is rarely used and baking it to sdf instead of polygons even more so.

Re: Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

#47
post #25
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It features a lot of effects (radiosity, HDR maps, etc.) which are added on top of its basic functionality Huh? POV-Ray has supported radiosity for literally decades, since sometime around 1995.

Yep, I'm tired of these kids saying PovRay coudn't do shit as if PovRay had in 1997 the same capabilities of an Irix machine from 1987. They couldn't even be more wrong with that. I remember seeing photoreallistic images made with PovRay in 1997 you coudn't even do with a GPU today in real time. Kids today have a lot of ignorance on the 90's technologies, guess why they confuse the 80's and the 90's a lot thanks to t…

The explosion of JS and web development created a culture of people totally ignorant of the hard-learned lessons since the 1960s. That is why you see constant reinventions of the wheel, a shitty wheel at that.

Re: Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

#48
post #43
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just tooling. > At render time, though, you need to use a bunch of extra tricks to get the right smoothing Nurbs or any smooth geometry needs to be subdivided too. You can set levels, max size of polygons, smoothness constraints subdivide based on the pixel size from the camera projection or any combination. In practice this is not a problem for polygons or nurbs. > - bump/texture mapping, This is orthogonal…

> Nurbs or any smooth geometry needs to be subdivided too Not true; lots of smooth surfaces, including NURBS, can be and are ray traced without subdividing. > Polygonal geometry, even subdivided, is typically not a big part of memory or time in rendering in all but the most pathological cases. I don’t buy this either, speaking from experience using multiple commercial renderers. It is true that texture is larger, but…

> I don’t buy this either, speaking from experience using multiple commercial renderers.

It of course depends on exactly what is being rendered, but typically texture maps of assets for high quality cg are done at roughly the expected resolution of the final renders (rounded to a square power of 2). Typical assets will have three or four maps applied to each group of geometry, with higher quality hero assets having more groups.

> RenderMan, for example, does adaptive tessellation of displacement mapped surfaces because they will run out of memory with a uniform displacement.

It is specifically screen space displacement and this has been effective, but was originally crucial in the days where 8MB of memory cost the same as someone's yearly salary. In PRman actually polygons are even less of a burden on memory because of this with micropolygon and texture caches for efficiency, even with raytracing.

The real point here though is that nurbs don't really have much of an advantage, even in memory, because polygons are already lightweight and can be smoothed. Subdividing of polygons is typically not going to be too different from burbs and heavy polygonal meshes are likely to be extremely difficult to replicate with nurbs.

Don't get too caught up in exactly what is technically possible, this is about why nurbs are not an ideal form of geometry that anyone is trying to use again. Their disadvantages outweigh their advantages by a huge margin.

Re: Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

#49
post #46
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't subdivide. It's a mathematical intersection.

Right, but the rest of the questions remain, along with the usefulness of CSG in real scenarios. CSG can be interesting, but it does end up being very impractical for anything except for some specific effects that are then turned into polygons. It is technically possible to create sdfs and trace against those I'm sure, but csg is rarely used and baking it to sdf instead of polygons even more so.

POV-Ray disagrees. It renders CSG. It never converts to polygons. So stop saying what a 30 year old program does is "impossible".

Re: Ray Tracing with POV-Ray: 25 scenes in 25 days (2013)

#50

I loved POV-Ray in the 1990s and early 2000s. The thing is—it’s ridiculous to try and make something remotely complicated or organic with POV-Ray, unless you are using some modeling program that can export to POV-Ray format. POV-Ray scenes were dominated by procedural textures and geometric primitives, for the most part. The rendering engine was very strong, and supported all sorts of features like area lighting, dep…

POV-Ray was my introduction to programming, before actual programming. Graph paper and a lot of trial and error.

My longest render was 50 hours for a single 640x480 image, with caustics and area lighting. 50 hours of a Pentium 100 MHz buzzing near my bed.

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