Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

861–870 of 877 posts

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#861

Post by int_19h »

stcredzero wrote: post #851
oblio wrote: post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And do you think that in Sweden of all places, minorities don't have a voice? They have more of a voice, because they don't have a two party system. If you are American, please check out some European political systems. You'll find that politics in Europe are a lot more nuanced and minorities in general are much, much better represented.

And do you think that in Sweden of all places, minorities don't have a voice? I don't know if you intended it that way, but the above feels like you're trying to put words in my mouth to that effect. No, I don't think I said that minorities are voiceless in Sweden. They have more of a voice, because they don't have a two party system. Right. Again, as Matt Easton says, "Context!" If the US were to go fully democratic…

The system as it is sucks for more than 50% of the population, though. With a two-party system, you're either going to have tyranny of the majority, or tyranny of the minority. Neither is good, but the former is preferable.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#862

Post by int_19h »

CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #771
apazzolini wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm aware that's what he was referring to, but it's not the entirety of the tax burden in the US, and even people who pay nothing in income tax still pay taxes. This is precisely why a flat tax disproportionally impacts lower income people.

Unless it’s a flat tax on capital assets. I think it would be interesting to try out a model where _only_ capital assets are taxed. No sales tax, no income tax, no capital gains tax. It should dampen the effect of the rich getting richer only from rent collecting, while still making sure the market allocates capital to where it provides the most economic value (I.e can be turned into enough revenue to pay the tax in…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#863

Post by int_19h »

simonh wrote: post #822
mcphilip wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is anecdotal and it might come across as bitter and tonedeaf as someone who is not in a STEM job and cant see the bigger picture very well. Im a diesel engine tech who repairs those big trucks carrying food and shit tickets to grocery stores. the fact that ANY market is completely detached from whats actually happening to Americans is frustrating. Thanks for posting this comment. I know it sounds trite, but I’…

Very few rich people will actually get any richer. Most of them are heavily invested in stocks, which have plummeted, or owned or work for businesses which are being crushed. There are very, very few places to hide from what's going on. One possible exception, and it's quite a small group really, may have had a lot of money in cash and bonds. They may be able to do quite well by buying or investing in businesses at r…

Rich people will get poorer in the part of their wealth that is largely virtual anyway - stocks and other investments, the value of which is so far removed from the real world by now, it's all just make-believe. The actual physical assets that provide them with improved quality of life will be just fine, for long enough that all those virtual losses become gains.

But the poor and the middle class will be hit - are being hit already - at those physical assets. So their quality of life plummets directly and immediately.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#864

Post by int_19h »

mc32 wrote: post #417
base698 wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unrest starts when people had and lost. The people who were able to afford a BMW last year find themselves homeless this year. True Believer has lots of insight into the circumstances than lead to unrest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

I think it starts when people have nothing left to lose. There’s no hope to lose, there’s no illusion left. On the other hand, some societies can descend quite a bit and be okay with going into more or less survival mode: witness Russia.

Russia had a lot of political unrest back in the 90s, when it was at the bottom of its descent. It elected extremist parties to parliament - commies had the majority for how long? - and street politics was also... messy at times. I remember growing up in that period, and back then it would have been entirely unsurprising to wake up one day to see ballet on TV where news are supposed to be.

So I wouldn't call it a good example of being okay. It made it through that political unrest without blowing up as a whole (but with plenty of local crises, like Chechnya)... but it was not smooth sailing at all.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#865

Post by tekknik »

Frondo wrote: post #841
tekknik wrote: post #806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because that drive to pull ones self up is what built the US into what it is today. without that drive what is the point of being more than what you are today? the struggle to be something more is literally the driving factor behind all of existence. the opportunity is out there for most people if they look hard enough. that said there are definitely some who need societal help to pull them out of a rut but it is mos…

What built the US into what it is today was its incredible amount of untapped resources, followed by military dominance and tapping into other countries' resources. Keeping people impoverished was (and is) not necessary for that.

Where exactly are you getting “keeping people impoverished” from? Is the assumption they will try and fail? What is forcing them to fail and therefor stay impoverished? The entire point is to move from having nothing to having something. Either you’re born into it, or someone who’s already earned it gives it to you.

I’m not going to bother with the other part of your comment as your clearly biased but I’ll assume you’re not insinuating that things magically happen without hard work, that just sounds silly.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#866

Post by CuriousSkeptic »

apazzolini wrote: post #858
CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless it’s a flat tax on capital assets. I think it would be interesting to try out a model where _only_ capital assets are taxed. No sales tax, no income tax, no capital gains tax. It should dampen the effect of the rich getting richer only from rent collecting, while still making sure the market allocates capital to where it provides the most economic value (I.e can be turned into enough revenue to pay the tax in…

I agree with a wealth tax in principle, but it's not without many difficult implementation challenges. For example, someone's entire net worth could be held in art. How do you accurately gauge its value if it hasn't been sold in two decades?

Auction it out. Highest bidder on rent gets to keep it.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#867

Post by CuriousSkeptic »

int_19h wrote: post #862
CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #771

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless it’s a flat tax on capital assets. I think it would be interesting to try out a model where _only_ capital assets are taxed. No sales tax, no income tax, no capital gains tax. It should dampen the effect of the rich getting richer only from rent collecting, while still making sure the market allocates capital to where it provides the most economic value (I.e can be turned into enough revenue to pay the tax in…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

There’s a good moral argument about dividing capital into land and other assets.

But I suspect that from an economical efficiency perspective that division is less interesting than between revenue and assets.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#868

Post by apazzolini »

CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #866
apazzolini wrote: post #858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with a wealth tax in principle, but it's not without many difficult implementation challenges. For example, someone's entire net worth could be held in art. How do you accurately gauge its value if it hasn't been sold in two decades?

Auction it out. Highest bidder on rent gets to keep it.

This doesn't make sense. You're now saying that the government is going to be in charge of inspecting every citizen's property and auctioning it for them?

I'm as liberal as they come, and that just seems ridiculous.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#869

Post by stcredzero »

int_19h wrote: post #861
stcredzero wrote: post #851

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And do you think that in Sweden of all places, minorities don't have a voice? I don't know if you intended it that way, but the above feels like you're trying to put words in my mouth to that effect. No, I don't think I said that minorities are voiceless in Sweden. They have more of a voice, because they don't have a two party system. Right. Again, as Matt Easton says, "Context!" If the US were to go fully democratic…

The system as it is sucks for more than 50% of the population, though. With a two-party system, you're either going to have tyranny of the majority, or tyranny of the minority. Neither is good, but the former is preferable.

Neither is good, but the former is preferable.

This is why being gay before 1950 was so great: because the majority of society got its way. That's why there was segregation in many places in the US back then: because the majority of society got its way. It took the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's to get the in-built principles and mechanisms which are there in the US system to protect the minority to really apply. And yes, it was in part the action of the national majority which got that to happen.

The usual reason why people say the majority should get its absolute way, is generally because they are in the group who would come out on top. That's a shortsighted view. Even the majority is human and gets it dead wrong sometimes. This is why certain human rights need to be inviolate. This is why every government needs some sort of mechanism which gives the minority out-sized power. The US just does it in this particular way.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#870

Post by int_19h »

CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #867
int_19h wrote: post #862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

There’s a good moral argument about dividing capital into land and other assets. But I suspect that from an economical efficiency perspective that division is less interesting than between revenue and assets.

It's really more about dividing capital into the kind that is "natural" and limited - land, mineral rights, EM spectrum; some would also say copyright and patents - and the kind that is produced by human labor. It's a bit fuzzy in practice.
Post reply on HN