Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#621

Post by endymi0n » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #349

jedberg wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, I don't think college should be paid for with loans. I agree with you that we shouldn't be enslaving people. But I also don't think allowing these loans to be discharged in bankruptcy will solve anything (and will arguably make things worse) without systemic changes in the way college is paid for.

It will force "the system" to come up with some other way to pay for tuition. What do you think about Income Share Agreements? https://www.thesimpledollar.com/loans/student/income-share-a...

So what you‘re proposing is that a fairer way to paying back tuition is making it essentially free when taking it and then, IF you end up making a lot of money, paying it back with a share of your income?

I can‘t resist the feeling this sounds surprisingly related to the concept of free higher education and a higher, progressive income tax, a pretty revolutionary approach we‘ve been doing with limited success over here in Germany.

Then again, that might just be my naïve European perspective on things and since taxes are theft and free education is just for those commies wanting free things, it‘s surely inappropriate for a free country.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#622

Post by achenatx » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

State schools are still a relative bargain. I attended around 30 years ago and it was about 5000/year + 4000 room and board. Tuition now is about 16Kyear and room and board is about 13K/year. If tuition is doubling every 20 years, that is about 3.6% growth in cost

The average public university is about 10K for tuition today. I think that is attainable for a middle class family.

Where things are really out of whack is all the loans to attend private schools. A student has no business going to any private school if they have to take out 50-100K in loans per year.

There should be no govt backed loans to private schools and no student loans should be discharged in bankruptcy.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#623

Post by JamesBarney » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #113

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan.

Because if that was the case no one would lend them money, and there wouldn't be any student loans.

Also there is a repayment system where you only are required to pay a percentage of your income above the poverty line..

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#624

Post by rolandog » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:57 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #179

gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

But isn't the reason for the sole existence of college loans that there aren't any regulations controlling the private education industry? More availability for loans means the schools can charge more for tuition.

Just like the whole american privatized healthcare; the sky is the limit... to what they'll charge you.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#625

Post by ivalm » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:57 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #462

jefftk wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it's a bad bet for the bank, it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That doesn't follow: you could graduate, get your degree, and declare bankruptcy. You're fine, your loan is gone, and the bank regrets their investment.

Let's make that point clearer: Since the bank is absolved from making that bet, it is now the young adult making the same bet that no sane bank would take. A lot of people are now living with having lost that bet.

But the young adult has agency over outcome while the bank doesn’t. Normally the bank would take collateral to align interests.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#626

Post by mettamage » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:57 PM UTC

twomoretime wrote: post #406

0d9eooo wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated, and a deeper problem than that. For example, I'm one of those former psych majors, and though those majors are full of people who aren't good at math, there's also a lot of them who know more computer science and math than some of the comp sci majors I've worked with. In fact, a common problem for psych majors and other students is to take the first couple of psych courses, think it's a breeze,…

>The deeper problem is that people are seen one-dimensionally, as equal to some degree, rather than their experiences, like college is some glorified vocational certification program. This wasn't a problem when college was an exclusive program with standards that maintained prestige. Those standards have been gradually eroding as we faced collective political and corporate pressure to "open college up to everybody."…

I don't fully agree with your post, but you do make some good points. In The Netherlands I have seen some majors go downhill (hello psychology!), while others became a bit tougher actually (hello computer science!).

In the Netherlands though, what I've noticed is that high school was tough (if you did STEM high school that is). IMO, high school was way tougher than university, considering the skills you had at the time and effort you needed to put in.

Even computer science is a cake walk compared to that, because at university people tend to be more motivated than in high school.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#627

Post by LudwigNagasena » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 9:59 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #93

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

It's hard to pick an economically viable major. There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition. People tend to think Science = STEM = Guaranteed Job, but that is not the case. Lots of sciences don't make much money, especially the ones driven by passion. Others are highly geographically dependent, so mining engineers might have a median salary of $80k after five years, but 80%…

You make it sound more complicated than it is.

Good grades and a degree in Math/CS/Statistics/Physics/Engineering (or Business/Finance/Economics in a top uni) = high paying job.

Life sciences pay much less unless you are ready to pursue a PhD or MD, in such case the numbers are somewhat comparable.

A person who pursued biochemistry bachelor as a terminal degree or studied English literature has all information to know the opportunity costs of their decisions.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#628

Post by JamesBarney » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 10:00 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #450

dabbledash wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interest rate would be very very high, as it should be. You can’t on the one hand encourage people to loan money to those who aren’t credit worthy and on the other hand bemoan the fact that people end up with loans they can’t pay back. The former policy is guaranteed to produce the latter outcome. It also artificially inflates the price colleges can (and will) charge. Allowing people to discharge education debts…

Reducing the supply for colleges isn't going to make overall college education cheaper while maintaining the same quality of education. There is certainly some waste in college budgets, but it will mostly force colleges to cut the least profitable programs. Education is a social good. We should invest in it like we do with other public services. It shouldn't need to be profited minded.

>Reducing the supply for colleges isn't going to make overall college education cheaper while maintaining the same quality of education. There is certainly some waste in college budgets, but it will mostly force colleges to cut the least profitable programs. Education is a social good. We should invest in it like we do with other public services. It shouldn't need to be profited minded.

We subsidize the shit out of education, and yet it still manages to be such an awful investment people can't pay it off over 30 years with very low interest rates.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#629

Post by irishcoffee » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 10:01 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #563

irishcoffee wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a STEM major at a large public university, my classmates and I decided that at a meta-level, STEM majors learned how to learn new and complicated things quickly in order to get good grades in classes. Also, as a STEM major, I found attending class less than helpful most of the time. I do remember spending quite a lot of time in either a computer lab or in the library fighting my way through problems. Math, physics…

> STEM majors learned how to learn new and complicated things quickly in order to get good grades in classes. That's a skill that the liberal arts pick up as well. > I do remember spending quite a lot of time in either a computer lab or in the library fighting my way through problems. Will did that all on his own, without the need for a college. You're also describing a technical institute. I don't see any skills the…

I didn't realize we were in violent agreement. I posted a fun quote from a movie I like that was relevant to the parent. You replied with a touch of snark and I felt compelled to defend myself from your comment. And now here we are. Heh.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#630

Post by JamesBarney » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #250

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math but have great aspirations for their child, is sat down and asked to sign a load of papers, not realizing that this will lock them into decades of unforgiveable debt and wage slavery. Well yeah, because us "adults" don't wanna pay the state and local taxes necessary to keep public universities affordable.

Why is this downvoted? In the European nations (with the notable exception of Britain), university is free or nearly so.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.TOTL.GD.ZS?end=2...

Our government spends more money on education in both a relative and an absolute sense than the European average.