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Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may if they face competition form Lambda School style ISAs (not necessarily just ISAs generally, but ones that are actually good for the student). As a bonus this would make universities better at education since the incentives would be aligned with the students. It would be helped though if the easily available government loans were not available, though with the generally bad politics from both sides on this,…

You're assuming a lot of faith in market forces. In reality, the incentives should already be aligned with student interest: All of the information for it is already available. Retention & graduation rates are public knowledge, and you can easily find out if a school has job placement (and their rates) or merely a "career services" area that will help you write a resume and point you at some other resources. The fact…

It's not really the same when the school gets the money either way and it's not clear how the placement rates really translate to good outcomes (it puts the rationality burden on the students which is the wrong place for it and less likely to work for the reasons you describe). Schools are incentivized to not have students fail out and to select hard for students already likely to succeed during admissions, but that doesn't mean the students currently learn much from the school or that the schools should even make education their focus (as opposed to increasing their prestige via research or facilities to attract more students).

If student failure to succeed in the market led to university failure we'd see a lot different behavior from universities.

I don't think the universities are currently selling education, they're selling prestige and network access via credentials with some education on the side at inflated rates from easy access to government non-defaultable loans.

This leads to weird behavior like all majors being the same cost and the same length along with lots of people employed by the university that don't know anything (career services where I went to school was a good example of this). There's also a lot of spending on facilities to lure students that is unrelated to education or success afterwards (since they have to compete with other universities for all of the free government loan money).

If this free money was not available there would be a check on people getting loans for majors that are not economically viable. If school's offered ISAs then the school's would provide the check. As it is currently, the student carries the burden of evaluating all of this - it's not a surprise a lot of people fail this at 16.

This incentive alignment issue is why people come out of universities and get destroyed by technical interviews, why a large amount of CS majors can't solve fizzbuzz and why people pay a lot for ultimately worthless degrees. I don't disagree with the cultural problems you describe, but I think if there's an ISA option vs. 100k in debt option more people will take the ISA option if the education actually works (and it will have to for ISA providers to survive).

There's a way to fix the systemic incentive issues and place the burden of evaluating economic viability on systems better able to handle it. This would fix a lot of the problems, but it's hard to change from within the system with the current broken incentive structure. That's why I'm excited about the Lambda School approach - I don't think universities can dig themselves out of this and I don't think the necessary changes to government loans is politically viable.

This is also why I think 'free college' is bad policy, it further prevents Lambda School like ISA approaches and cements in the current broken incentive structure.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#422
post #379
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? If it's a bad bet for the bank , it must be far worse of a bet for young adults. That's the point -- right now we're essentially suckering millions of naive young adults into a life of wage slavery by giving them a "bet" which they are completely unequipped to evaluate; and many of t…

I agree with what you are saying, except that we shouldn't say students are unequipped to evaluate the "bet" merely for being young and inexperienced. If we wanted to, we could train students to be much better at evaluating such a bet.

> we could train students to be much better at evaluating such a bet

Maybe... but we could definitely alter the nature of risk involved.

Why not reduce cost of tuition (e.g. <$1K/semester), while raising the bar on academic rigor as a means of controlling demand?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe the dept of education should stipulate that 80% of college operating budgets be direct teaching/research costs, lest their fed loan largess be taken away. and progressively tax endowments, particularly targeting above a threshold of $100K/student or something like that. currently, the incentives are such that greedy people can just milk all the unrestrained cash flow coming into what should be a non-profit-orie…

Which of these expenses do you think they should eliminate? https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d18/tables/dt18_334.10.a...

i'm sure there's plenty of nuance, but that chart shows about 43% overall going to instruction & research, so everything else?

(until you get to ~80/20)

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#424
post #416
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

>All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. Why would anyone lend money to someone with zero credit history, zero income, zero collateral, zero prospects of repaying the loan for at least 4+ years, and has the ability to immediately declare bankruptcy as soon as it comes time to start paying you back? What would the free market int…

I'll go one further.

Education is not an asset you can take away. Houses and cars can be foreclosed on; you can't take and resell education as a good.

It either needs to be kept as a pure luxury commodity, or it needs to be valued societally and not require an individual to pay for. Even if college is 'cheaper', if it prices some people out, it can't be viewed as a necessity to be able to get a good job (not saying it is, but society certainly tries to push that viewpoint).

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#425
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But barring shifting to a European model of college funding, I don't see the US allowing dischargeable loans, nor do I think they should, because the reality of it is that colleges won't reduce their rates nor increase their scholarships, they would just be completely out of reach of poor and middle class students. The reality is that the they should be out of reach to poor or middle class students TODAY. They are…

Like I said in my initial comment, I don't agree that would be the outcome. I think a lot of smaller college would fail, and the big colleges would keep their high prices, and only cater to the wealthy.

You only need to look at historical examples to know that cannot be the case.

Take for example, cars. That's how cars started. Look where we are today.

If tuition stays sky high, it will be because of regulatory requirements (and enabling subsidies) to stay sky high, not because theres no market for education for working class folk

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#426
post #416
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

>All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. Why would anyone lend money to someone with zero credit history, zero income, zero collateral, zero prospects of repaying the loan for at least 4+ years, and has the ability to immediately declare bankruptcy as soon as it comes time to start paying you back? What would the free market int…

Lenders stopping lending would be fantastic! Without eager lenders with usurious terms on their loans like no bankruptcy colleges would have to make “tough decisions” like figuring out how to be less expensive.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some degrees . I don't see many CS degrees working retail. I don't see many EE degrees doing so.

Nearly every EE I graduated with, including me, had to give up on our dream of being a hardware engineer because nearly zero hardware companies will hire an EE grad from a mid-level school. They either refuse to hire new grads or only recruit at CMU/Purdue job fairs. Then you take a software job that's available but not interesting, and you get pidgeonholed into that field. It's not retail but it doesn't seem great f…

This is absolutely true which is why I went back and got a masters from CMU.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this downvoted? In the European nations (with the notable exception of Britain), university is free or nearly so.

It's not 'free' it's paid for through taxes.

Good point. The rich need to pay taxes, else there is civilization only for the rich. Consider Alabama, a lowtax state, thanks to the 1901 constitution that the landowners and industrialists wrote to protect their wealth and look what shape the state is in.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#429
post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

The other replies are interesting and insightful, so I wanted to add a little anecdata here. > some massive college bills In the late 1980s I started a Computer Science program at Cal Poly Pomona https://www.cpp.edu/ If memory serves, my tuition for a quarterly full load was less than $300. That's not per credit, that was for as many classes as I wanted. Books added up to a bit less. Working at Jack in the Box and la…

At CSU Long Beach, tuition is about 7k per year. We hire our student assistants at 13/hr, so they can make around 8 or 9k year in salary. Not nearly as cheap when I went, we paid around 2k a year for tuition. So if you are willing to go to a state school, you can come out with relatively small amounts of debt. Now if you go to a really nice private University and live on campus, all bets are off.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#430
post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

it goes further up. Luckily I was an only child to a single-worker-family midlevel government employee that rode the interest cliff and was willing to spend gobs of money for my (quite good) college, and I went for a technical grad program that pays you sub-minimum-wage (but no educational debt!) to do 100 hours a week in a lab for seven years, so I had no debt -- but I quit my postdoc to drive for lyft for a year and a half, and I made more money and had less stress driving for lyft (yes, after expenses) than I did in my postdoc. Everyone thought I was crazy. Well, maybe I was, but I wasn't the only postdoc that had quit and was driving for lyft full-time.
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