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Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#351

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Be aware REPAYE can be voided if your loan is resold (which you have no control over) and any missed payments or extra payments or any changes to your program (ie, if you apply for lower interest, your REPAYE is reset).... this has occured to people who go through the public service path.

Personally, this right here is the crux of the problem. Debts should not be resaleable. Loans are supposed to be about risk-sharing first, profit-taking second. However, seeing as that will never happen I would settle for no resale without a meeting of seller, buyer, and borrower, with right of refusal of transfer of service by the borrower. to ensure that any changes/terms associated with the initial debt contract a…

I wish... there are people who have been on the public servant program for 8 years and had their timers reset by a resale... without any missed payments.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#352
post #337

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Yes exactly. The small schools would just disappear, and the big names would keep going.

Clearly both would happen, right? Harvard doesn't set their prices based on loans, they wouldn't care. Some mid-rank colleges would disappear, and some would adapt to serve the new market.

> Harvard doesn't set their prices based on loans,

They most definitely do:

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2006/10/25/tuition-increa...

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#353
post #339
post #284

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Basically Harvard, and maybe Columbia and that's it. UIUC, Wisconsin-Madison, Berkeley, Michigan-Ann Arbor are orders better schools in the sciences than Dartmouth or Brown.

In math, Princeton tops all the non-Ivy's you list, and UPenn has at least a fighting chance, maybe depending on speciality.

Specialty fields yes. But Princeton engineering is ordinary, and the state schools often have exceptional faculty across multiple departments - leading to way more collaborative, cutting-edge work.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#354
post #349

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To be clear, I don't think college should be paid for with loans. I agree with you that we shouldn't be enslaving people. But I also don't think allowing these loans to be discharged in bankruptcy will solve anything (and will arguably make things worse) without systemic changes in the way college is paid for.

It will force "the system" to come up with some other way to pay for tuition. What do you think about Income Share Agreements? https://www.thesimpledollar.com/loans/student/income-share-a...

I love income share agreements.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#355

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Aren't European colleges the same price as American colleges if you're not European?

Germany for example offers free education for Americans/foreigners. I remember this was discussed a while back on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9308261

Some states already require foreign students to pay 500€ each semester and others will follow. On top of that you will have to guarantee that you can support your life in Germany, meaning you are not eligible for any kind of government support if things get tough or you lose your job.

Going there thinking everything will be provided is wrong and the COVID-19 crisis will get a lot of foreign students into deep trouble as they lose their jobs and can't support themselves.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#356

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Is that bad? Humanities departments are already shrinking without any changes because there's just no demand. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me that if you are determined to get a degree in philosophy, which has virtually no job prospects outside of teaching the next generation of philosophy students, you have to go do that at one of a handful of schools that carve out a niche for themselves with a philosop…

As someone who majored in English, I assert that the emphasis on STEM and shift away from the humanities is causing serious problems in our society. Specifically, having a population lacking in critical reading skills makes everyone more susceptible to propaganda, and less able to critique and assess flawed arguments in writing. If you want to know why, for example, our political “debates” are shallow circuses of mis…

Wow, I had no idea that STEM education results in people who lack critical reading skills.

You didn't offer any support for your claim, though, which triggers an alert from my critical reading skills.

Did I pass the test? I did major in STEM.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#357

A couple of points: not all colleges are created the same. Many state schools, particularly top-tier ones offer fantastic educations at an excellent price-point. They are a good value, and will remain so. Along with need-based aid and scholarships, they are amazing vehicles to reduce generational inequality (look at UCLA for example). I can only speak to the engineering (not software) side of things, but from lab wor…

I would personally consider the education I received in UC Berkeley when I was there studying CS, excellent. It was very challenging (in a way, it's impossible to exaggerate this), I found tons of help from TAs, my peers, professors were experts in their fields, labs were very useful to make me experience "real life" stuff and discussions were very useful to learn "theory" side of things, both of these occurring in the same class. I had a lot of research opportunities, and "hand-on" engineering opportunities.

The only problem I can think of right now, it was occasionally hard to get the class you want; but with a few strategies it was manageable to get all the classes you want.

I hear a lot of people who criticize college being "4 years of fun". I don't doubt this is the case for most people, but this cannot be further than my own experience (and my friends in Berkeley who studied some STEM field). When you have endless stream of homeworks, projects, midterms and often-times you need to make decisions so that you minimize the penalty you can get by spending too little time on a HW (as opposed to maximizing your grade), there was simply not enough time to socialize. Obviously there were many people who socialized and partied but their GPAs were low. Also obviously, there were people who socialized and partied also had high grades, but they were very brilliant and were probably 0.1% of the class. Most of us mere mortal souls spent weeks in library studying and perfecting ourselves.

We can have endless discussions about importance (or lack thereof) universities, but given the correct setting, and correct motivation, they can be incredibly good tools.

When I came to Berkeley my family was piss poor and I was a 1st generation college student. Fast-forward 3 years (I graduated in 3 years as opposed to 4) I found a 6 figure job doing what I love every day, programming. I think that's a very good deal.

Controversial claim ahead: I think this discussion about universities' importance is uniquely American. I think we're simply discussing the wrong thing. Instead of questioning whether college is important for X, Y, we should be discussing how we can make every single American go to college. Yes this would mean having public universities where Americans can go without any cost, European style.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#358

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The question is rather, how do you think degrees help assess new hires? 1) Programming skills? These are easy to assess with programming exercises. If someone has a degree but can't solve a programming exercise, I won't hire them. 2) Interpersonal skills? But a tech degree doesn't certify those, you need to assess them the hard way anyway. 3) Culture fit? But if you use degrees for that, it's simple discrimination, "…

I think this is a very limited view of what college, and being a great employee, is all about. Yes, I agree that education should not a priori be a dealbreaker. However you're shortchanging here the value of a) accomplishing something over a number of years, which a decent number of people with all 3 of the dimensions you specified, couldn't necessarily do; and b) the Gen Ed side of technical degrees. Strong communic…

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#359

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How else do you propose companies should assess new hires, especially young ones? And while the cost of tuition these days (IMO) outstrips the value of a college education, that’s not to say that value is zero.

I'd say the value of the average four year bachelors degree today is less than the value of the average two year trade school, so the value might not be zero but it might as well be. That being said, I think the assessment problem is real. I'm the founder of a small startup that very few people want to work for (relative to say, Google) and that means I can assess each candidate in careful/unorthodox (time-consuming)…

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Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#360

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For the average college graduate, college is still a pretty good investment. I could write lots of comments about people without a college degree that live crappy lives and have trouble finding good paying jobs, and people with college degrees that live well and make a lot of money. My prediction is that we'll see changes in the US system. The problem you're pointing out is the risk. Universities are the ones that IM…

No college is going to advocate for taking future income from students over government backed loans or a traditional loan. The former translates to less immediate income. Colleges had little reason to raise tuition since 2000 except for money, I don't see them suddenly moving to forward-thinking strategies.

They may if they face competition form Lambda School style ISAs (not necessarily just ISAs generally, but ones that are actually good for the student).

As a bonus this would make universities better at education since the incentives would be aligned with the students.

It would be helped though if the easily available government loans were not available, though with the generally bad politics from both sides on this, I find progress there unlikely.

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