Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#291

Post by N1H1L » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:32 PM UTC

ridaj wrote: post #143

megiddo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, to be clear, price controls never work. Prices are determined (mostly and usually) by supply and demand. More demand -> higher price. More supply -> lower price. The price of an education (regardless of cost structures, public funding, or whatever) is going to dominated by demand, since supply is relatively fixed. It takes years or decades to increase the supply of qualified instruction following typical universi…

> this is largely the same process that drives healthcare pricing in the US Also, real estate

And traffic in freeways when you build them in/near urban centers.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#292

Post by mrlala » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:32 PM UTC

Justsignedup wrote: post #224

The fairly recent law that you cannot bankruptcy out of a college load caused all this. - Lenders are willing to lend to anyone knowing they will HAVE to pay. - Colleges over-inflated costs, way beyond inflation - It balanced out to this shit. In the past, colleges had to be careful, and so did lenders, because lots of people just didn't go to college due to cost. So they had to sell their worth.

Well.. the problem is how can lenders "be careful" when loaning to an 18 year old, which we can call an adult all we want but an 18 year old on their way to college is basically a grown child with no money.

So how can a lender protect themselves? Make a parent with enough money co-sign? Then you are essentially systematically not giving loans to poor people.. and only giving "loans" to kids with parents who have money.

Anyway I do think it's a complicated problem.. we want to be able to give loans to basically anyone so they can go to school; but if they are loaning to people who by definition have no assets how can a lender protect itself without essentially discriminating against the poor?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#293

Post by IdiocyInAction » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

While I do not want to be rude, statistically speaking, those with tertiary education still do better on average than those without. It's true that there's outliers and that underemployment is a persistent problem (especially in our over-educated society), but getting tertiary education might still be a better choice than a trade school, depending on your situation.

Nothing is without risk and you should inform yourself about your job prospects beforehand though. Not every major will pay and some will only pay to a select few. One should put much thought into major choice (or whether they should go to university at all) - it's one of the more impactful choices in people's lives.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#294

Post by mrlala » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:34 PM UTC

colinmhayes wrote: post #283

thelean12 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What state schools are $60k+ for 2 years for in-state residents? Berkeley was my guess for an expensive in-state tuition rate and they're $38k for 2 years. Unless you're including housing/food/etc.

UIUC is 25k a year just tuition and fees. Expensive college town room & board plus opportunity cost of education instead of working easily gets you to 30k a year.

Holy shit it's that expensive now?? Graduated from there about 15 years ago and it was maybe 8-10k a year..

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#295

Post by daseiner1 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:34 PM UTC

cousin_it wrote: post #183

ryeights wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else do you propose companies should assess new hires, especially young ones? And while the cost of tuition these days (IMO) outstrips the value of a college education, that’s not to say that value is zero.

The question is rather, how do you think degrees help assess new hires? 1) Programming skills? These are easy to assess with programming exercises. If someone has a degree but can't solve a programming exercise, I won't hire them. 2) Interpersonal skills? But a tech degree doesn't certify those, you need to assess them the hard way anyway. 3) Culture fit? But if you use degrees for that, it's simple discrimination, "…

I think this is a very limited view of what college, and being a great employee, is all about. Yes, I agree that education should not a priori be a dealbreaker. However you're shortchanging here the value of a) accomplishing something over a number of years, which a decent number of people with all 3 of the dimensions you specified, couldn't necessarily do; and b) the Gen Ed side of technical degrees. Strong communication skills and a general intellectual background are both valuable assets in an employee, and aren't captured by programming skills|interpersonal skills|culture fit, but are hinted at by, e.g., the ability to write a 10 page research paper which is a degree requirement for the top-line university certifications.

Yes, all of these skills can be gained and evinced without the traditional 4-yr college route, but I understand why generic Big Corp middle management uses it as a proxy for establishing a baseline in what I, and you've, mentioned.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#296

Post by chipperyman573 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

jgalt212 wrote: post #127

HarryHirsch wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That being said, these people didn't have to settle for serving drinks in a bar. I'm familiar with a certain materials science startup in England that lost out on a round of funding in the dotcom bust and went bankrupt soon after. The chief chemist, a very capable man, went back to his native country in the Former Eastern Bloc and worked in a shipyard for a couple of years. It was that bad.

but his similarly skilled native born co-worker, probably found his footing in a decent job. The privileges of citizenship. And I don't say that in a sarcastic way.

There was nothing that the OP said that would imply the person wasn't a citizen, much less that they had troubles because of their citizenship.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#297

Post by swiley » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

augustt wrote: post #76

bambataa wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life. Allocate some buildings to the student body, get them to organise themselves and throw a bit of a cash at them. I think that's a good balance. I studied at a university with quite a focus on "college life" and it was nice to feel part of something but we didn't need to organise our social lives.

I think it's often the parents who are buying into these things. Meal plans and dining halls are so popular because parents think their kids can't possibly cook for themselves or walk 10 minutes to eat out (at least that's my perception in a college city with lots of options to eat out, most of them cheaper & better than meal plan).

Where I went there was a very strong fear that the students might socialize with people in the town and get influenced by them. The university had a bunch of rules in place to prevent this, they knew who they were selling to.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#298

Post by MrMorden » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

brownbat wrote: post #128

gwd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, I thought so too. This always made me so angry. Last time I posted a rant about that here someone urged me to read the REPAYE Act, and it completely changed my mind. Under REPAYE, students get income based repayment, even down to $0 payments if you're anywhere near poverty level. After a certain number of years o…

Doctors declaring bankruptcy to get out of medical school debt sounds like anecdata. If student loans were dischargeable, that would change nothing for MDs because they're still going to make enough money to service the debt after residency/fellowship.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#299

Post by lcall » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:35 PM UTC

grubb wrote: post #257

lcall wrote: post #225

Two accredited online ones that have interestingly sustainable models, and possible interaction with others, I think: BYU Pathway Worldwide and associated programs. It requires a Church affiliation but not necessarily membership (I think). I think tuition is much lower, bachelors programs (like IT, business, others) are available, programs excellent, and is also suitable for those who need to first become qualified f…

I know that standard BYU has the lowest tuition in Utah, lower than any state school, provided you are a tithe-paying member of the Mormon Church [1]. Otherwise they have a higher tuition, similar to the in-state/out-of-state changes for most state schools. Does BYU pathway tuition work the same way? I don't have a ton of experience with Western Governor's, but the fact that unlike many online universities they are n…

Good question: if you ask BYU Pathway Worldwide people or browse their site to learn about it, would be a good follow-up post here, to say. :) I am pretty sure I link to them indirectly above (i.e., to a page that has a convenient link to them).

(Edit: from what I have read, I don't think there are different tiers for tuition, but it is all the same. Corrections welcome. I think it is quite low, for any student, so the opportunity including for international students in lower-income countries is significant.)

And for WGU, there were praises of it on this page from former students (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22719797 and Ctrl+F for "wgu"), and a relative of mine is planning to attend soon, but I can't say from personal experience. I would certainly hope they do a good job. At the very least, they are accredited and one can use that credential to earn money while continuing to learn well from many available sources (like MIT online courses, unix system documentation, etc :).

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#300

Post by jackcosgrove » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:36 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #290

jackcosgrove wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We treat education as a public good. Employers don't have to pay for their employees' educations, and employees can take their skills around with them. Given that banks know their customers need employees they would get around to giving loans out to keep the supply of talent coming. There would just be far less waste if student loans were dischargeable.

If the US treated education as a public good, then the US taxpayers would pay for education.

Maybe not the best word to use. Education is not a private good, like that offered by a medieval guild which required the learner to work for some period for the guild like an indentured servant.