Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#121

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:40 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #103

basch wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The job can be done better for much less. First and foremost, the lecture part of education is extremely inefficient. I know "watch the video" just doesn't work for some people, but charging for a live rendition of a repeated script, and then not valuing the person who watched the same recording equally, is absurd. Education needs to acknowledge a couple things. 1) Theres probably a "best" lecture or lecturer out th…

I remember when MIT first started publishing their lectures online. I would watch them for my chemistry and physics classes and was astounded by the fact that the lectures were basically identical. Ivy league schools had this mystique around them and I always wondered what it would be like to be there instead of a community college. Turns out, the difference is absolutely not in the lectures or tests. At least, for f…

> The number of credible online degree programs has exploded in recent years.

Could you supply some examples? I know of Western Governors University, but it only has limited majors.

In particular, do you know of any online degree programs in materials science?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#122

Post by michaelt » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

runawaybottle wrote: post #7

xhkkffbf wrote: post #2

I wish I could be more sympathetic to the college industrial complex, but they've been treat us poorly for years. Yes, I know it's our fault for demanding gold plated educational experiences and then going into crazy debt to finance it. But who wants to blame himself/herself? The job can be done better for much less. Indeed, it used to be much cheaper in the past when the dorms weren't so fancy and there were a bazil…

I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable. No sympathy here for the college industry.

> I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how 15K+ in tuition a year is acceptable.

I believe people who support such things think as follows:

1. $15k a year tuition for 4 years is a great deal if it turns you into a banker or programmer with a $150,000 a year salary and a 40-year career. Indeed, it would be unjust for a garbage man's taxes to be paying for a stockbroker's education.

2. Majoring in poetry might not be such a clearly great decision, but if you're on the left politically, banning poetry is anti-intellectual; and if you're on the right market demand is its own justification.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#123

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #115

basch wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not saying the lecture itself is expensive. I am saying the artificial scarcity of everything around higher education keeps people from receiving a certified education that is recognized by the employment marketplace, when at least for undergrad classes, the lecture and the textbook is largely what you need to receive a functioning education.

I think the number of people graduating with a collage degree significantly outstrips the demand for collage degrees. Otherwise you would not see people with collage degrees working retail etc.

For some degrees. I don't see many CS degrees working retail. I don't see many EE degrees doing so.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#124

Post by ryeights » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

cousin_it wrote: post #86

Tech companies should take the lead on this. Say loud and clear: we no longer ask about education, and no longer take education into account when hiring, starting today. Devalue the sheepskin.

How else do you propose companies should assess new hires, especially young ones? And while the cost of tuition these days (IMO) outstrips the value of a college education, that’s not to say that value is zero.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#125

Post by mpweiher » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:42 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #85

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

our bartender Javon had a masters in biology That's de-risking, de-skilling and outsourcing. Back then, in the last century, the US and Europe had a functioning chemical industry. Unfortunately, information technology took off, and investment banking discovered that returns are better with Facebook than in Pharma, consequently that's where the jobs are now. Also, mergers & acquisitions took off in the same time. Why…

The financialization of the economy is more a US/UK thing than the rest of Europe.

Lots of chemical industry here, etc.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#126

Post by kingaillas » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

craftinator wrote: post #56

asah wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even GenX attending certain state schools could partially pay for school this way, especially if you had low/free rent, for example living at home.

Can you provide some sources for this? Let's assume minimum wage, calculate average living expenses, hours spent in class and doing HW vs hours working. I know I spent at least 70hrs a week doing school.

I'm GenX, went to college in the late 80's, in state tuition in TX was $2000 per semester as I recall. I knew people who worked a part time 20 hours/week job that paid $8 an hour. (graveyard shift sorting boxes at a local shipping company). I knew many others who did some program where they worked at the college and made $5 an hour IIRC). I was a grader/TA/proctor for the first year engineering course and made the princely sum of about $10/hr but there was a lower cap on weekly hours which I don't recall exactly. I want to say it worked out to 10 hours/week on average so about $100 a week. For two semesters of about 18 weeks of work (10 hours a week) I could make $3600. But you had to be a junior or senior so this job could only be done for 2 years.

Not sure what sources you want to see. The fact is tuition now is mind bogglingly more than when I went. Or, tuition is outrageously jacked up now compared to the past.

Here's a link from the Houston Chronicle showing tuition over the years for TX:

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/The-c...

For 1990 it shows average tuition, room, board was about $6500 for a YEAR, for TX state schools.

Maybe you couldn't earn every penny you needed while also attending as a student, but it sure was a hell of a lot easier to get 50% of the way there than it is now. If you needed financial aid to bridge the gap you weren't facing painful debt for decades. If you only had to borrow half of what you needed, you could leave college with a loan of $13000 to pay off. That's a cheap car.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#127

Post by jgalt212 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #112

mywittyname wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pick an economically viable major. There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition. People tend to think Science = STEM = Guaranteed Job, but that is not the case. Lots of sciences don't make much money, especially the ones driven by passion. Others are highly geographically dependent, so mining engineers might have a median salary of $80k after five years, but 80%…

That being said, these people didn't have to settle for serving drinks in a bar. I'm familiar with a certain materials science startup in England that lost out on a round of funding in the dotcom bust and went bankrupt soon after. The chief chemist, a very capable man, went back to his native country in the Former Eastern Bloc and worked in a shipyard for a couple of years. It was that bad.

but his similarly skilled native born co-worker, probably found his footing in a decent job. The privileges of citizenship. And I don't say that in a sarcastic way.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#128

Post by brownbat » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #113

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy,

I thought so too. This always made me so angry. Last time I posted a rant about that here someone urged me to read the REPAYE Act, and it completely changed my mind.

Under REPAYE, students get income based repayment, even down to $0 payments if you're anywhere near poverty level. After a certain number of years of repayment, the government just pays off your entire balance.

This solves the same problems bankruptcy is designed to solve without ruining people's credit. It also prevents doctors from declaring bankruptcy right after medschool -- I'm honestly unsure whether that was a real or just anecdotal problem, but income based repayment for a fixed term seems like a better way to let people escape debt while still expecting them to pay what they can.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#129

Post by amiga_500 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #85

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

our bartender Javon had a masters in biology That's de-risking, de-skilling and outsourcing. Back then, in the last century, the US and Europe had a functioning chemical industry. Unfortunately, information technology took off, and investment banking discovered that returns are better with Facebook than in Pharma, consequently that's where the jobs are now. Also, mergers & acquisitions took off in the same time. Why…

Yep, financialisation black hole. Cratering living standards, partially hidden by printing ever bigger numbers next to people's house prices and ignoring that they have no retirement savings.

Many of the "industries" beloved by this site are showing they are only viable on top of a backbone of "real" jobs like industry and manufacturing.

No N95 mask manufacturers, but we can write how sad we are about this on facebook. And the media won't tell us the root cause, so nothing is learned.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#130

Post by horsemessiah » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

gwd wrote: post #113

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

> He had some massive college bills too and i didnt understand how those worked, but you cant get rid of them like you can a car loan. This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math bu…

I appreciate this perspective. So many people have no sympathy towards young people, who have been told their whole life that college is the path success.