Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#141

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #109

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because many (most?) states have been cutting state funding for public universities for years, IIRC. (See, for example, https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-r... ). It wouldn't have been sensible to impose price caps while cutting funding at the same time.

If I’m a Republican legislator and I’m seeing my kids enroll at a state college where gender and queer studies classes are a requirement to get a computer science degree, I’m going to want to defund too. I remember my Republican high school peers arguing with our liberal debate coach, and he’d just laugh and say “wait until you go to college, then you’ll get it”. Sure enough, she went to Harvard Law and became a Demo…

Universities are also the place that turn out STEM graduates and Ph.Ds: engineers (the non-software kind, where you actually need and use the education), physicians, scientists and researchers of all flavors (like the kind trying to find a cure for COVID-19), and so forth. These people are the pillars of progress and innovation necessary for a country to be great. Ironically, by defunding universities, culture warrior conservatives are effectively slitting their own country's throat.

(Personally, I had no use for the ideologues either but managed to avoid them by simply not taking any of their classes; foreign language courses are a great way of filling humanities requirements with something actually useful.)

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#142

Post by downrightmike » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #65

Universities have to do all this proxying for a good education because they are unable to demonstrate the primary value: making you valuable to society. If they did, they could simply publish "Median income distribution for graduating students by degree achieved". They currently sell a common lie: that there is a roundedness or completeness to education. This is common wisdom and false.

The only degree that doesn't force a "well rounded" education is aerospace engineering. They start on their major course work right away. How many of those guys are out of work? "Well rounded course work" is just a money sink and wastes two years. Most of the major course work that matter you don't get to until junior and senior years. All you really need are those last two. First two are a waste.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#143

Post by ridaj » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

megiddo wrote: post #78

lumost wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the oddities in the college process is how public universities followed the price increases of their private counterparts. Why weren't state governments able to dictate effective cost controls to keep costs down for residents? Note that I'm aware of in-state tuition. The main campus of my state university charges 30k/year instate, and 40k/year out of state. Neither number is appropriate in a state with a media…

So, to be clear, price controls never work. Prices are determined (mostly and usually) by supply and demand. More demand -> higher price. More supply -> lower price. The price of an education (regardless of cost structures, public funding, or whatever) is going to dominated by demand, since supply is relatively fixed. It takes years or decades to increase the supply of qualified instruction following typical universi…

> this is largely the same process that drives healthcare pricing in the US

Also, real estate

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#144

Post by gizmo686 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

hnburnsy wrote: post #97

matchbok wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, sadly the demand is still there. It's so easy to get huge loans and as a result, there is no downward pressure on price. My tiny college had 5 full-time staff for "residence life", plus a dean of that department. Totally unnecessary.

My anctedot... My daughter at college has three academic advisors; a general advisor, honors advisor, and her chosen major advisor. Geeesh.

And how much "advice" to they give? When I went, the only time you had to talk to your advisor, was once a semester for them to rubber stamp your approval for major-only classes (which the official advisors would defer to in-major professors). Beyond that, you were free to talk to advisors on an as needed basis. There role was essentially to be a primary point of contact for students. Why shouldn't a student have multiple advisors. If she has a problem/question with her honors program, ask the honors advisor. If she has a general administrative question, go to the general advisor.

Our entire math department was served by two advisors who likely also had non advising administrative duties.

My honors advisors were just the main faculty of my honors program.

I don't think I ever spoke to my official CS advisor.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#145

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

ex_amazon_sde wrote: post #138

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life. If I understand the American system, there is pressure from parents as well. The students might not want the college to be so involved in their student life, but many parents would be unwilling to allow their children to attend an institution that is not highly focused on keeping them safe, to the point of treati…

> highly focused on keeping them safe This is not the point of the parent post. Extravagant expenditures on dining halls do little for safety. Competitive sports are a net negative for safety. A large number of european (as well as japanese) cities are very safe. Also, university students are adults.

> Extravagant expenditures on dining halls do little for safety.

Parents are worried that their children might struggle to nourish themselves without the college or university seeing to their meals. Once all institutions have come to offer some form of meals on campus, individual institutions can then stand out from the crowd and attract students’ interest and parents’ approval by boasting more elaborating dining halls than other places.

> A large number of european (as well as japanese) cities are very safe.

Of course. But the issue here is that fretful American parents assume that anywhere their little darlings go off to will be unsafe, and their children shouldn't be left all on their own.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#146

Post by tengbretson » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

twomoretime wrote: post #105

mywittyname wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to pick an economically viable major. There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition. People tend to think Science = STEM = Guaranteed Job, but that is not the case. Lots of sciences don't make much money, especially the ones driven by passion. Others are highly geographically dependent, so mining engineers might have a median salary of $80k after five years, but 80%…

>There are lots of difficult fields to study that just don't pay well due to competition That may be the case, but speaking as a recent young person, the vast majority of college students I met did no actual research regarding the employability of their majors. It's also a disservice to group soft and hard sciences together under STEM - because you end up with millions of children who can't hack it in math, but they…

I truly believe that it should be illegal for state-funded universities to collect tuition from students that are "undecided" in their major.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#147

Post by rdgthree » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

ryeights wrote: post #124

cousin_it wrote: post #86

Tech companies should take the lead on this. Say loud and clear: we no longer ask about education, and no longer take education into account when hiring, starting today. Devalue the sheepskin.

How else do you propose companies should assess new hires, especially young ones? And while the cost of tuition these days (IMO) outstrips the value of a college education, that’s not to say that value is zero.

I'd say the value of the average four year bachelors degree today is less than the value of the average two year trade school, so the value might not be zero but it might as well be.

That being said, I think the assessment problem is real. I'm the founder of a small startup that very few people want to work for (relative to say, Google) and that means I can assess each candidate in careful/unorthodox (time-consuming) ways. Companies at Google scale have to assess thousands of candidates per month (week?) and they have to do it in a way that ensures they're beyond reproach with regard to discrimination.

Having a college degree means you're statistically more likely to know your stuff, period. Correlation or causation isn't material in this case. There would have to be a very good reason for any big company to start ignoring that reality.

Tricky problem. I'd imagine the only solution involves an actual replacement credential. Like a bar exam, but for "private" disciplines. Maybe Neuralink will sort out how to see if you actually have the necessary understandings in your brain.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#148

Post by DataDaoDe » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

basch wrote: post #96

DataDaoDe wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent a fair amount of time and energy working and researching in this area. I'd agree with most of what you are saying. To point #1 I worked on a project that had almost the exact same design you mention (collaborate, git versioned edits of learning modules, etc.) - the biggest problem is the mounds and mounds of red tape and regulation that stifle any truly innovative solution. There are some movements for hig…

with regard to 2, thats why i used the word flip. i dont think my 1 or 2 are that unique, a lot of it is dreaming of a khan+git+wikipedia. with regard to 3, i think the larger question is, is that what is best for society? to create elite clubs based on who you know vs merit, capability, output volume etc.

> is that what is best for society? to create elite clubs based on who you know vs merit, capability, output volume etc.

I don't know if finding ways to expand someone's network and connections necessarily means we have to create elite clubs - having networks is vital to success in any way, especially in a system based on merit.

So maybe I was one step ahead of what you were saying. I read it as more along the lines of given the entire set of X people in our education systems, how do we ensure a system that is fair and allows for the maximal human flourishing of each individual member while taking into account our psychology and the negative externalities / side-effects of emergent system dynamics. (Of course this last point, is something we sorely need in many fields - not just education).

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#149

Post by sysbin » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

wincy wrote: post #109

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because many (most?) states have been cutting state funding for public universities for years, IIRC. (See, for example, https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-r... ). It wouldn't have been sensible to impose price caps while cutting funding at the same time.

If I’m a Republican legislator and I’m seeing my kids enroll at a state college where gender and queer studies classes are a requirement to get a computer science degree, I’m going to want to defund too. I remember my Republican high school peers arguing with our liberal debate coach, and he’d just laugh and say “wait until you go to college, then you’ll get it”. Sure enough, she went to Harvard Law and became a Demo…

Did you find anything in the previous comments for needing to write this nonsensical opinion?

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#150

Post by bambataa » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #71

bambataa wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life. Allocate some buildings to the student body, get them to organise themselves and throw a bit of a cash at them. I think that's a good balance. I studied at a university with quite a focus on "college life" and it was nice to feel part of something but we didn't need to organise our social lives.

> I've never understood why students would even want the college to be so involved in their student life. If I understand the American system, there is pressure from parents as well. The students might not want the college to be so involved in their student life, but many parents would be unwilling to allow their children to attend an institution that is not highly focused on keeping them safe, to the point of treati…

Does this have anything to do with 21 being a significant age? I understood that from 18 in the U.S. you were legally an adult but there seemed to be a bit of a blurry period up to 21. That seems less of a thing in the UK.