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A case for ending lockdown

ryankemper.io

201–210 of 381 posts

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#201

If it's not obvious, I wrote this. The intent is to be a fairly comprehensive coverage of what we know about COVID-19 and what it means for our policy. Note that the article is written from a US-based perspective although I suspect it's relevant to a broader audience. In general, I believe that the case against lockdown has been highly stigmatized and thus many people have not been exposed to a convincing argument of…

I've read the whole thing and I have these comments:

- I think the part about the freedoms is unnecessary because I feel the vast majority of the pro-lockdown people do not share your enthusiasm for freedom and public discourse. While your main argument may shift their opinion, the part about liberty may cause them to stop reading and discard your other arguments.

- I think some claims would sound more persuasive if there were more links to research. For example, the claim about 0.1-0.7% mortality. There's a study about China (0.66% mortality) and a bunch of others that could support your point. You could also add mortality stats for influenza in the US from the CDC website (I think it's 0.13% on average).

- The TLDR sounds bitter and childish, in my opinion.

Overall a great summary and I'll share that with others.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#202
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has much larger nursing homes than, for example, Norway, and most deaths in Sweden are from nursing homes. The time integral of the curve over 1 year will tell the real story.

Most deaths in most countries are in nursing homes. Do we not care if older people die?

You don't have to do a full lockdown if you just want to protect nursing homes; isolation of just the nursing homes/other high-risk concentrated populations would have the same effect on those inside

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#203
"I’m a software / site reliability engineer based out of Santa Barbara, California."

From someone living in NYC: fuck off. You have no business telling anyone anything regarding health and safety.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An argument could be made that that would lead to cherry picking hopeless data.

Lombardy (the region of Northern Italy where this was concentrated) has a very very good health system. And it still collapsed. Don't get me wrong, lockdowns are super problematic and the economic hit is going to be really, really bad but it's better than letting health systems collapse. For instance, Ireland (where I live) had 220 ICU beds before this started; we upped that to around 500 and around 350 were filled a…

> Lombardy (the region of Northern Italy where this was concentrated) has a very very good health system.

To be honest, it was good, but it was not as good as people hoped. Massive errors like allowing infections to run rampant in the hospital in Alzano Lombardo contributed a lot to the spread of the disease in the area around Bergamo and Brescia.

ICUs were also at 80% utilization when the pandemic hit, because beds have been slashed a lot in the past years.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#205
Going back to the basics on this one.

Has any government presented a cost benefit analysis of all the available options to address this situation?

Like most things in life this isn't black and white, so where is the analysis of the pros and cons, worst case projections, etc of not doing anything / going into lockdown / other alternatives.

I for one have not seen it.

Shouldn't such an analysis be the basis of any decisions we make? It follows therefore that it needs to be first of all DONE, then publicly presented and argued from all angles before a decision is made.

But, no. A decision has been made and presented to us. We can rest assured, they say, the science CLEARLY shows that this is the right decision. Then - at least in the UK - later they admitted that the economic impact and the following consequences have not yet been looked into.

The arguments should not be about lockdown or not. It is fair and everyone duty to scrutinise government decisions, not because they should have done the exact opposite, but simply because they haven't presented a robust case for what they're doing.

Let's not forget, it is their ONLY job to represent us - a job all of us are paying for -, and do things that are in our best interest, yet they fail to properly justify decisions.

Anyone who without question agrees to locking down the economy might want to consider that bailouts, stimulus packages, unemployment benefits, and anything else the government does is paid for with our money.

Add to this the borderline misleading way covid deaths are classified and a dozen other similar issues and you have yourself a very interesting situation which should be raising questions in everyone.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#206
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve started explicitly telling people in my life that I’m not interested in their non-expert opinions when they weigh in on when we should open up.

Would you also agree with WHO's expert advice against wearing masks and against restricting travel? These are literally the world's top experts, so you should just accept what they say and do not challenge that. Is this correct?

[deleted]

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#207
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you also agree with WHO's expert advice against wearing masks and against restricting travel? These are literally the world's top experts, so you should just accept what they say and do not challenge that. Is this correct?

This is an extremely bad faith response. Nobody suggested that experts are infallible or should be followed blindly, that’s just an obvious straw man. Experts disagree and make mistakes, and other experts regularly help point that out and make corrections. What does not follow is the idea that expertise doesn’t matter, and that I have to listen to everyone single person’s hot take on a subject that they just started…

You are right! And it also doesn't follow that one should discard a piece of information just because it comes from some dude's blog.

I'm also very frustrated about people sharing horrible lies and fakes from blogs or Facebook posts.

But I think we should judge the article by its content rather than by whether it's by a programmer or a doctor.

This is why I like anonymous or nearly-anonymous forums like this one: it forces you to think about the content without being influenced by the author's attractive photo, their fame or credentials, or the letters "MD" next to their name.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#208
Background: The COVID-19 pandemic is responsible for increasing deaths globally. Most estimates have focused on numbers of deaths, with little direct quantification of years of life lost (YLL) through COVID-19. As most people dying with COVID-19 are older with underlying long-term conditions (LTCs), some have speculated that YLL are low. We aim to estimate YLL attributable to COVID-19, before and after adjustment for number/type of LTCs.

Methods: We first estimated YLL from COVID-19 using standard WHO life tables, based on published age/sex data from COVID-19 deaths in Italy. We then used aggregate data on number/type of LTCs to model likely combinations of LTCs among people dying with COVID-19. From these, we used routine UK healthcare data to estimate life expectancy based on age/sex/different combinations of LTCs. We then calculated YLL based on age, sex and type of LTCs and multimorbidity count.

Results: Using the standard WHO life tables, YLL per COVID-19 death was 14 for men and 12 for women. After adjustment for number and type of LTCs, the mean YLL was slightly lower, but remained high (13 and 11 years for men and women, respectively). The number and type of LTCs led to wide variability in the estimated YLL at a given age (e.g. at ≥80 years, YLL was >10 years for people with 0 LTCs, and Conclusions: Deaths from COVID-19 represent a substantial burden in terms of per-person YLL, more than a decade, even after adjusting for the typical number and type of LTCs found in people dying of COVID-19. The extent of multimorbidity heavily influences the estimated YLL at a given age. More comprehensive and standardised collection of data on LTCs is needed to better understand and quantify the global burden of COVID-19 and to guide policy-making and interventions.

https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-75

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mortality rates you quote are for the case when the number of cases is low and the hospital system is working. To see what happens otherwise look at Madrid, look at the UK aiming to "protect the NHS". If you had unlimited hospital capacities your analysis would make sense, but that is the whole point(!). If you can flatten the curve, then covid is manageable, if you can't your hospital system collapses and sudden…

Out of curiosity, to what extent do you feel we successfully flattened the curve in New York? Given that recent serology results showed between 15-20% prevalence, it does seem like it could have been significantly worse. But just to be clear we should note that we ended up having a massive excess of capacity as far as ventilators and beds were concerned (I'm guessing the real bottleneck is trained staff but am not su…

I am unaware of a "massive excess of capacity" in NY; quite the opposite. Where do you make that conclusion from? NY, to my knowledge, has been well over capacity and has had to take severe measures. Hospitals have had more patients than they can deal with and the staff is overworked. Elective procedures have been cancelled, no visitors are allowed, doctors and nurses who ordinarily work elsewhere are working in Covid-19 units. Chicago is not doing well either. To put my chip down: yes, I do think we succeeded in flattening the curve in NY. We started the lockdown late, so we could not prevent it from getting very bad, but had we not done a lockdown, it probably would have been worse for longer.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#210
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I switched to working from home seamlessly. Many other people did too. There's plenty of at-home work. If I bought the assumption that getting COVID19 was relatively safe for me, I'd gladly swap jobs to keep someone else safe, especially if it meant moving up in the world. An at-risk individual could do my job, and I'd take their in-person job. While I think there are better mechanisms, free markets could take c…

What you describe would work if jobs were so commoditized that everyone could jump between them without any kind of onboarding or training. As it is, a new employee almost always provides negative value to the company for the first weeks or months, depending on the job particulars. So what would happen in many (most?) places is companies preferring to force the existing employees to come to work, rather than let them…

Fortunately at will employment works both ways. I can't be forced to come to work. They of course can refuse to allow me to come back in a few years after this is over but if they want someone today they need to entice them somehow. If things are now risky than they may need to offer hazard pay.

Note that a company giving a bad reference because you refuse the terms is likely to lose a lawsuit (in the US) since courts will find it reasonable for someone to refuse to come into work given the experts advice at this time. Thus the company will probably just confirm your dates of employment and refuse to say anything more about your performance while working there.

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