Live data from Hacker News

A case for ending lockdown

ryankemper.io

131–140 of 381 posts

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you are telling me, that you write an article with misstakes and think you should be the person making statements because you are able to write an article? Yes, I am a person that makes and is currently making mistakes. > And you also think, that politicians are doing an economycal suicide just because they like it? I analyzed the "game theory" of this a bit here: https://www.ryankemper.io/post/2020-04-29-the_ca…

You know, i'm an expert in developing software. But i'm an expert in this because i spend years mo-fr 40h min. with time on weekends and after work. There are plenty of people coming to me and say stuff like 'uh why does that take so long' 'i can do that quickly in an hour' etc. and at the end of the day they are wrong. In those cases, i would just love for people to accept my expertise and let me do what i'm good at…

> You are not an economist, you are not a doctor, you are not a virologist, you are not the statistics guy. Apparently you are a SRE.

Name any that were correct. Or that bothered reading the Chinese papers published months ago. I'll take an SRE over those demonstrated flakes anyday.

> because the risk of having corona, is actually for me, a bigger problem then just staying low for a few month.

It's not all about you, and your selfish rant is horseshit.

It's about public health policy. I think HNers don't understand the difference.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#132
Oh boy, I just wasted my time reading this, and I really wish the headline would have flagged that this is written by a "site reliability engineer" and not an epidemiologist with credentials. Feel like there would be a revolution in HN if this was the other way around - an epidemiologist writing about site reliability engineering after reading a few articles for 2 weeks. Should we not exercise restraint, thoughtfulness and humility instead of writing commentary and articles in areas where we have rudimentary understanding ? It is really an insult to experts in this area who have studied viruses for decades, have considered a variety of factors, have conducted academic studies, and have build complex models, all to be outdone by a "site reliability engineer".

As for the article itself, it is so full of misinformation, oversimplification, and hyperbole, where should I even begin.

1) Claiming absolute authority on fatality rate as 3x of influenza, when global experts have yet to agree on a number [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/17/us/coronavirus-death-rate...]

2) Then basing the article on an absolute fatality rate, when the fact remains that fatality rate depends on a number of different scenarios include health, immunity, age, hospitalization, ICU beds, and may be even weather etc. [2] To lump all of that into a single number simply hides the cost of COVID. Just in Michigan alone, 35% of COVID deaths are within the black community. Not having a grasp on how this impacts along racial and economic lines demonstrate a very rudimentary understanding of public policy. Ask yourself, if the fatality rate is 1% on average, but 10% for black people, will you still call for opening the economy [2] https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-its-so-freaking-har...

3) Repeated references to comparison with influenza, but not mention of the massive R0 differences between the two [3]. Influenza has a R0 of 1.3, while COVID is estimated to have an Ro of 5.5. And this matters, because now COVID is not only more fatal, but is also spreads faster. Both the denominator and numerator are deadlier for COVID, which is a compounding factor that the article doesn't discuss at all. if 20% of US population get impacted, we will have a death toll of 600K at 1% fatality rate. That will be 10x than that of the worst strain of influenza. [3] https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0282_article

4) There are a lot of reference to negative externalities of lockdown [without much data to back-up], but no mention of the positive ones. Such as plummeting car fatality rates, plummeting crime rates, and plummeting pollution [4] [4] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/04/pollution...

5) A strange out of context reference to social isolation and related deaths. The linked article and current situation are very different. People are isolating from others, but they are very much spending more quality time with their loved ones. I don't see any data on spike in depression during this period, and anecdotal evidence suggests that people are refreshing their relationship with their loved ones.

6) Section 4 presents a half baked plan of "opening" up without broader discussion of trade-offs and implications. For example, opening up but encouraging "at-risks" group to self quarantine. This is not how US workplaces work. Let's stay I am a at-risk worker with chronic lung disease, but I also work at a factory floor and my health insurance is through my employer. How am I supposed to self-quarantine when my employer will simply ask me to show up and if I don't I will lose my job and insurance ? And there won't be any government dollars to support

7) There is no discussion on how we can support the re-opening without ability to test people at scale. How will you know that the server at a restaurant or your gym instructor is not infected without massive upgrades to testing infrastructure ?

These are some basic observations from the article. I can keep going as every paragraph in this article has some questionable conclusions. I also feel the "soul of the nation" feels very hyperbolic.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An argument could be made that that would lead to cherry picking hopeless data.

Lombardy (the region of Northern Italy where this was concentrated) has a very very good health system. And it still collapsed. Don't get me wrong, lockdowns are super problematic and the economic hit is going to be really, really bad but it's better than letting health systems collapse. For instance, Ireland (where I live) had 220 ICU beds before this started; we upped that to around 500 and around 350 were filled a…

What is your point? Cherry picking is fine because everything is terrible? My cherry is so important it must be picked?

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#134
post #132

Oh boy, I just wasted my time reading this, and I really wish the headline would have flagged that this is written by a "site reliability engineer" and not an epidemiologist with credentials. Feel like there would be a revolution in HN if this was the other way around - an epidemiologist writing about site reliability engineering after reading a few articles for 2 weeks. Should we not exercise restraint, thoughtfulne…

> I really wish the headline would have flagged that this is written by a "site reliability engineer" and not an epidemiologist with credentials.

(Note: not the author). I think any article like this can attract (and even deserve, depending on what's presented) criticism. But I absolutely dislike the "lack of credentials" as an opening argument.

It's much better to tear away the points you don't dislike, IMO, without mentioning credentials. It's obvious that being in the field can give you much better understanding of the issues, but not being in it does not mean one will not try to reason over the data (even if wrongly).

I'm a biologist (well...half biologist, half computational biologist, and something else thrown in the mix). Does that mean I can not criticize (hypothetically) something on epidemiology because I don't have credentials, or, conversely, not try to figure out something in the data (even if my reasoning is totally wrong) because I don't have the required credentials?

I understand the above is a little too black-and-white, but I mean, let's encourage debate, even strong disagreements like your post, without going over what the author is doing in the first place.

P.S.: (not a jab at you, but a thought that emerged while writing this reply) I believe there are a lot of models floating on SARS-CoV-2, but I feel we also need loads of basic, bench level experiments to understand it better.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#135
post #123

What about the situation in northern Italy? In the absence of a lockdown, the healthcare system did collapse, or came very close to doing so and this was only averted when the government implemented draconian quarantine policies. The article claims that the survival of the healthcare system in places that implemented a lockdown has nothing to do with the lockdown, but then gives no evidence at all to back up that ass…

I also just have to point out that Sweden, the country that didn't implement lockdown, has 6 times higher amount of COVID-19 cases than other Scandinavian countries when adjusted. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/coronavirus-fatality-r...

Sweden has much larger nursing homes than, for example, Norway, and most deaths in Sweden are from nursing homes. The time integral of the curve over 1 year will tell the real story.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#136
It's been a long time, but I see we've returned to "I'm not an epidemiologist or virologist but a software engineer, and I'm writing a blog post because I know things better".

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#137
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is called 'overshoot'. See here for a good explanation https://twitter.com/CT_Bergstrom/status/1252077930286444545

Thanks. That was helpful. So then, it does seem that if we successfully contained the virus, and then avoided infection spread until a hypothetical future vaccine is developed, that we could avoid the number of infections required by some amount. Just to tie it back to the broader lockdown vs not lockdown debate, we could probably say that a successful full containment strategy+vaccination could decrease the net area…

Well, here's the problem: The statements your making are quantifiably incorrect throughout the article, and by large amounts. The article sounds authoritative, but it's not. It's the definition of Internet misinformation.

I think getting your opinion out there is important, but to be honest, the article needs a heck of a lot more in terms of disclaimers, and much less in terms of confident statements and grandstanding.

I've worked through the best available data. My conclusions:

1) The economic costs of ending the lock-down may be astronomical. This is especially true with what we learn about COVID19 and lung damage (or potentially other organ damage). If even a small fraction of the population is on long-term disability, the costs go up super-quickly.

2) The fundamental costs of the lockdown are cheap. With reasonable economic mitigations, the costs should be that everyone upgrades their car, computer, or similar maybe 6-18 months later, plus an extra 1-5 percent of the GDP.

3) Most of the economic damage of the lockdown, like a cytosine storm, is self-inflicted: bankruptcies, defaults, layoffs, etc. There are reasonable way to manage most of those (and the rest require a very modest stimulus). We haven't taken those steps because we're stupid.

4) If we don't put in systems to manage the economic costs, we'll be super-vulnerable to the next pandemic.

5) This is something which will come up again, and it's also something which is a national security issue. Engineering something like the next COVID19 as a bioweapon is, at this point, within the scope of even poor countries (North Korea, most countries in Africa, etc.), and there's a Moore's Law where the resources go down super-quickly (larger organized crime organizations could probably do this as well now). The point isn't that poor countries are more likely to do this (they're not), but that with 200 countries in the world, the odds that SOMEONE is likely to do this are increasingly high.

Re: A case for ending lockdown

#139

Nice article, I think you’ve gotten a lot right, and i think analyses like this get down to the point where we can have a rational discussion. Here are some counterpoints: 1. Looking at NYC, the fatality rate is roughly 0.5%. This is based on a 20% positive antibody sample, which is getting large enough that the false positives aren’t overwhelming the data any longer. 2. If we take that as a given, then if 100% of th…

Thanks. The NYC data is something I want to add in there eventually. I agree with your assessment and reached a similar number myself. The main thing that gives me some doubt is it seems plausible that we'll retroactively find that the deaths directly attributable to COVID-19 were somewhat overstated, in the sense that my understanding is a presumed COVID-19 diagnosis is accepted in lieu of having a positive test. (W…

> The main thing that gives me some doubt is it seems plausible that we'll retroactively find that the deaths directly attributable to COVID-19 were somewhat overstated, in the sense that my understanding is a presumed COVID-19 diagnosis is accepted in lieu of having a positive test.

Looking at the total number of excess deaths (for all causes, ignoring if it is COVID-19 or not), I would say that it looks more likely that it is severely undercounted.

You can find the graphs here: https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest (look for excess mortality rates for New York City).

I guess you could argue that the huge increase in deaths was caused by side-effects of the lockdown, but that does not really jive with the results from countries like Denmark, which did an early and hard lockdown, and as result show almost no extra mortality.

Post reply on HN