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Free America Now (@elonmusk)

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Re: Free America Now (@elonmusk)

#161

Post by Analemma_ »

rishirishi wrote: post #49

Easy to dismiss him because of his wealth or other prejudices you may have of him. "Free America Now" raises an incredibly important debate that all lockdown-ridden countries should be having. Were lockdowns constitutional? Were lockdowns effective? Could other measured responses have achieved similar outcomes? Were lockdowns done in vain? And have we set a dangerous precedent? Bunch of questions. Don't flame him or…

> Were lockdowns constitutional?

Yes. Courts have historically granted a lot of deference to the government in crisis situations. Also, "the Constitution is not a suicide pact" [0]

> Were lockdowns effective?

Yes. In pretty much every region, the flattening of new cases lined up exactly with the beginning of lockdown measures + incubation time, and this was also captured by unofficial measurements like smart thermometer data: [1]

> Could other measured responses have achieved similar outcomes?

Probably not. The aforementioned thermometer data showed no drop in fevers from the early half-measures like banning large gatherings, effectiveness was only from the lockdowns.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Constitution_is_not_a_suic...

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/health/coronavirus-fever-...

Re: Free America Now (@elonmusk)

#162

Post by Turing_Machine »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #157
menacingly wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

uh, no they're not. do you think the chicken fairy is depositing frozen birds in your supermarket? your existence is secured by a chain of people who haven't achieved the level yet for "is it safe for me to go to work?" to even register as a question

I think it takes a trivial number of actual human beings to do that. Everything has been automated. The minimum-wage folks are in service industries, and have been for decades. There are only 13M Americans left in factory jobs total.

The factories may have been automated, but the supply chain has not.

The most common job in the United States is retail salesperson, followed by cashier, office clerk, and food prep. Of those, only office clerk can reasonably be done from home. Maybe. In some cases.

Yes, those are considered "service" jobs. That doesn't change the fact that the chicken is only in the supermarket meat case because a person physically put it there. There's no big automated conveyor belt running from the chicken farm, through the slaughterhouse, and winding up in the meat case.

Re: Free America Now (@elonmusk)

#163

Post by Turing_Machine »

me_me_me wrote: post #129
cczizou wrote: post #88

I struggle to take Musk seriously. He has too much to gain from getting people working again. His production operations are notoriously behind schedule and only accelerate by throwing more (literal) bodies at the problem.

To quote the classic: "Many of you will die, but I am ready to make that sacrifice."

Can we please stop pretending that economic destruction doesn't kill people? Because it does.

If the food supply chain gets disrupted, as many fear that it may, that could be a lot of people.

Re: Free America Now (@elonmusk)

#164

Post by Turing_Machine »

DagAgren wrote: post #153
matz1 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not just him. A lot of regular people are mad too that the lockdown is losing them money and risking their live buy not allowed to work.

Is it really that much to ask them to do their part to keep hundreds of thousands of people from dying painfully. Is that really not something they are prepared to do.

Are you still getting paid?

If so, maybe you could take your next several checks and send them to people who are out of work.

You should be willing to do your part, right?

Re: Free America Now (@elonmusk)

#165

Post by SecurityMinded »

Why do all the rich people want to "free America now" ? Would it be because their factories are not running ? Get real people. Do not follow the wolf in sheep's skin. If something happens to you because you contracted the virus, you will be no more than collateral damage, as long as Tesla's roll off the production line.

Re: Free America Now (@elonmusk)

#166

Post by krapp »

Fjolsvith wrote: post #160
krapp wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>IANAL, but pretty sure that’s not how it works. Articles incorporated against the State prevent the State from passing laws that violate the Article. IANAL either, but here are examples of legal decisions and opinions by the various courts including the Supreme Court which appear to disagree with you[0-2], as well as some articles [3-4] which provide a basis for a legal argument that states have the right to restric…

When the issue goes to the SCOTUS, I'm sure that parallels will be drawn to how our society manages restricting vulnerable populations versus restricting all population. An example would be how children aren't allowed in establishments whose sole purpose is to sell adult restricted items like alcohol or pornography.

Everyone is vulnerable during a pandemic though, and the US is suffering from the effects of a lack of critical foresight and initial preparedness. I have no doubt at all that this is going to wind up in the Supreme Court but I don't think it's a cut and dry case.

Re: Free America Now (@elonmusk)

#167

Post by cpr »

650REDHAIR wrote: post #146
menacingly wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

uh, no they're not. do you think the chicken fairy is depositing frozen birds in your supermarket? your existence is secured by a chain of people who haven't achieved the level yet for "is it safe for me to go to work?" to even register as a question

And by non-essential workers staying home it frees more hospital beds for those more at-risk and exposed. That’s literally the point of shelter in place.

With hospitals shutting down, and doctors and nurses being furloughed for lack of patients...

Re: Free America Now (@elonmusk)

#168

Post by dang »

Please don't post like this to HN. It's off topic [1], against the spirit of the site, and led to a wretched and utterly predictable flamewar.

HN is fragile. The idea here is to try to stave off the default fate of internet forums [2, 3]. The forces pushing in that direction are far stronger than the ones in our favor. It wouldn't take much to destroy this place, and a thread like this is a real dose of poison.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Re: Free America Now (@elonmusk)

#169

Post by dang »

smcl wrote: post #86

Did this open up focussed on a tweet by a "Melissa A" with a reply by Elon Musk saying "True" for anyone else? Took me a few seconds to realise that I needed to scroll up to see the actual linked tweet (literally just the words "FREE AMERICA NOW"). I tried on a few browsers with the same behaviour, looks like this is deliberate .

I had the same issue yesterday in a different context and almost posted the same question.

Re: Free America Now (@elonmusk)

#170

Post by JoeAltmaier »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #162
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it takes a trivial number of actual human beings to do that. Everything has been automated. The minimum-wage folks are in service industries, and have been for decades. There are only 13M Americans left in factory jobs total.

The factories may have been automated, but the supply chain has not. The most common job in the United States is retail salesperson, followed by cashier, office clerk, and food prep. Of those, only office clerk can reasonably be done from home. Maybe . In some cases. Yes, those are considered "service" jobs. That doesn't change the fact that the chicken is only in the supermarket meat case because a person physically…

And a tremendous amount has been done to mitigate risk for sales. Curbside pickup; delivery; masks and shields; repeated sanitization.

I got to believe we're not arguing in good faith here any more. Goodbye.

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