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U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

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Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> monopoly of force We The People

full sentences consist of at least subject and verbs. And generally for more coherent arguments, you'll want to flesh that out further with `subject verb object`. Just a quick tip :)

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#432
post #98

This is anecdotal and it might come across as bitter and tonedeaf as someone who is not in a STEM job and cant see the bigger picture very well. Im a diesel engine tech who repairs those big trucks carrying food and shit tickets to grocery stores. the fact that ANY market is completely detached from whats actually happening to Americans is frustrating. My job just cut benefits and hours but we're "essential." Remembe…

It still surprises me that America has such a culture of leasing cars they can't afford for hundreds, if not thousands of dollars a month. Here in the UK if you said you were going to buy a car, most people would instantly assume you mean second hand. There's not much of a culture of buying or leasing new cars here, and even less of leasing cars that you really can't afford (outside of petrolheads anyway)

This is very eye opening, thanks. Yes, in the US, the implication is the opposite: "I bought a car" is taken to mean brand new.

I guess part of it is that it's a very car oriented culture, but the other part is that people value owning a new shiny thing over financial cautiousness.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#433
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was some discussion of aspects of this yesterday and there have been a few articles. The general consensus is that kids who have good home environments and have at least some interest in learning will mostly do fine. Some may even do better than normal. But kids in poor home situations who were already barely scraping by--if that--will basically lose the year and everything that implies. In some areas, double-d…

What does it imply? If any school district cares, all the kids will essentially end up repeating a grade. This is not the end of the world. If anything, it might improve student achievement. (Students who are born right after the cutoff for a particular elementary school class, in aggregate, outperform the ones born just before, the youngest in the class.) Outside of college-bound seniors — a special case — the main…

> If any school district cares, all the kids will essentially end up repeating a grade.

It sounds more like you haven't thought this through.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#434
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is anecdotal and it might come across as bitter and tonedeaf as someone who is not in a STEM job and cant see the bigger picture very well. Im a diesel engine tech who repairs those big trucks carrying food and shit tickets to grocery stores. the fact that ANY market is completely detached from whats actually happening to Americans is frustrating. Thanks for posting this comment. I know it sounds trite, but I’…

Most people will not want social unrest. Social unrest leads to chaos and unpredictability. A better alternative is the less sexy but more productive political action obviously with buy in from the power brokers. Unrest is what happens in Venezuela or Yemen, etc. it doesn’t always have to be like that as those are extreme; never the less unrest is a medicine that is in most instances worse than the disease.

Not even 3 decades ago all it took was a jury verdict for anarchy and looting to sweep across LA, requiring the national guard to put down the unrest. People were breaking into stores to steal diapers. What will be the breaking point this time around?

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until everyone in the supply chain from mining to customers have free movement, which means 80% or more of the world have some sort of immunity (Either from opening everything up or vaccines) our economy will be depressed. This will be many many quarters from now. Even if today China said don't care that would be 6 months at least. And they are only part of the supply chain. What don't we know?

The supply chain already has free movement. Every country's border closures have exempted international trade, and almost all stay-at-home orders consider mining and such to be essential businesses.

There are ~193 countries in the world. Its not just yours that matters.

How many mines are run by under 10 people. The answer is a lot, there are 50 million artisanal miners globally, 90% of the mining workforce.

South Africa shut down industrial mining for a period and is still not allowed to fully ramp up.

Is oil all ok as it shuts down wells it can't just reopen?

Exploration has been shut down across the board.

No, mining is not ok.

And its only a small part of the supply chain I mentioned. It's just one bit that will not be fully operational within 6 months.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My question is how much, if any, social unrest this will lead to. My question is how many people have absolutely no ties to the stock market? I'm pretty far from any definition of rich, but I still have a 401k, so you're not likely to see me rioting because the S&P 500 is in the green.

What does what you have in your 401k matter if your house and car are being repossessed? I suppose you could pull it all out at penalties and with a bunch of taxes, but that's going to be work, and assumes you have enough in there to make it worthwhile.

Penalties are waived for certain exigent circumstances, which I believe this would qualify as.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, we can let a million folks in the USA die because we love our capitalism, but 80%+ of the USA disagrees with that false dichotomy.

First of all, that number is clearly exaggerated. No current evidence supports the claim that a million people in the USA dying of covid is remotely plausible. Now to the substance of your argument: this has little to do with capitalism. If most people are not working for a long period of time, in any society, even a non-capitalist one, then that society will rapidly become dramatically materially poorer. We make cho…

It's not just Covid. If the hospitals are overwhelmed, that car accident you get into means you might not be able to get medical care, causing a small issue to become deadly. You may not be able to get treated for a heart attack.

Further, we are seeing people still testing positive and having health problems over a month after first symptoms. If your entire supply chain is taken out, essential or not, you can end up with larger problems than when you started. If you think it's a problem that the meat packing plant has to close after a single case, wait until 75% of the plant is symptomatic.

Finally, the solution is to have enough tests and contact tracing so that people can confidently open up, knowing that we can stop the rate of transmission. This shutdown should be used to prepare for a way we can safely reopen, a la South Korea.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My question is how much, if any, social unrest this will lead to. My question is how many people have absolutely no ties to the stock market? I'm pretty far from any definition of rich, but I still have a 401k, so you're not likely to see me rioting because the S&P 500 is in the green.

Only 52% of americans own any stock whatsoever [0], and the richest 10% of americans own 84% of all stock. [0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/190883/half-americans-own-stock... [1] https://www.nber.org/papers/w24085

> and the richest 10% of americans own 84% of all stock.

The top 20% of earners also handle close to 90% of the tax burden, while close to 50% of the population pay nothing in taxes.

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#439
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely much harder to inflate the dollar than any other currency. If there's massive demand for the dollar, that's a huge deflationary effect on the dollar, which counteracts the inflationary effect. In times of crisis, everyone wants to be in the global reserve currency.

That's true, but "much harder" != "impossible". If you print enough dollars, there will come a point at which it will stop being the world's reserve currency. The only way to find out where that point is is to actually cross it. That will be a very painful experiment to conduct. If we ever get to that point, the world will learn the meaning of the word "hysteresis".

No one knows what's the limit of "enough dollars". It's not infinite but it's very possible that enough money can be printed to provide ubi to the lowest rung of the society ad infinitum

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks at 4.8% Pace, Signaling Start of Recession

#440
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people will not want social unrest. Social unrest leads to chaos and unpredictability. A better alternative is the less sexy but more productive political action obviously with buy in from the power brokers. Unrest is what happens in Venezuela or Yemen, etc. it doesn’t always have to be like that as those are extreme; never the less unrest is a medicine that is in most instances worse than the disease.

> A better alternative is the less sexy but more productive political action obviously with buy in from the power brokers. That's the first thing that will be tried, but to be truly successful the "buy in" needs to happen equally as much from the people that are on the verge of picking up pitchforks. It also needs to be an authentic political action. Unfortunately our politics in the USA has gone into profound dysfun…

Yes, this exactly. These problems are absolutely possible to solve through political action. But our leaders have had ample opportunities, spread out over more than a decade, to do so. And they've sent a clear signal that they simply won't.
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