YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine • Hacker News Board

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#571

Post by thu2111 » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:21 AM UTC

jdkee wrote: post #401

djsumdog wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should be able to see all the opinions of various experts; doctors in NYC, doctors in Minnesota. Just them on their merits and examine the evidence. By pulling videos, YouTube/Google is saying they don't trust people to be able to discern anything or do research among several dissenting opinions. And yes, it's their platform and yada yada .. they still allow a lot of content to be uploaded and they have become…

"People should be able to see all the opinions of various experts; doctors in NYC, doctors in Minnesota. Just them on their merits and examine the evidence." Most people are not qualified to "examine the evidence" and make public health policy decisions. This is why we rely upon the experts. Otherwise you have measles outbreaks in Beverly Hills.

So doctors aren't experts in health now. That's what it's come to?

Do you think epidemiologists are? The people who have apparently never predicted a disease outbreak successfully, ever? Why are they experts but not these doctors?

And what makes YouTube employees believe they're qualified to decide who's right? They're experts in HTML5 video serving, not health.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#572

Post by luminadiffusion » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:24 AM UTC

wesammikhail wrote: post #566

luminadiffusion wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed all the points by turning this into some strawman crying fit of moral outrage about "appealing to authority". These doctors did not have proper training the statistics they horrifically misrepresented . They also made it sound like they had substantial knowledge in the field of Epidemiology. They don't. Both of these doctors are now going before the California Medical Board because they got the facts wrong…

Dear Commenter, I am sorry to inform you that you do not have a PhD in online commenting and therefor are not a domain expert in online communication. For that reason your comment and opinions in the previous reply are invalid and should be de-platformed. Yours truly, Hypocrisy

> Dear Commenter,

>

> I am sorry to inform you that you do not have a PhD in

> online commenting and therefor are not a domain expert in

> online communication. For that reason your comment and

> opinions in the previous reply are invalid and should be

> de-platformed.

>

> Yours truly,

>

> Hypocrisy

Oooooooh. This comment is so deliciously stupid that I am going to quote it verbatim in case you delete it. I would hate deprive future readers of the ability to marvel in the grandeur of its laughable dimwitted glory.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#573

Post by thu2111 » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:25 AM UTC

pmarreck wrote: post #432

jdkee wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not logically follow if the general public does not have the expertise to evaluate public health policy discussions and decisions.

> if the general public does not have the expertise to evaluate public health policy discussions and decisions But you're now asking people to trust experts, which in 2020 is apparently crazy-talk

"Experts" in 2020 are merely washed up mathematicians and Ethiopian politicians who have no incentive to be correct, only to speak, and who have spent a lot of time publicly arguing with each other and producing completely contradictory advice and predictions. Of those predictions they all had severe and deep flaws, like the Imperial paper that assumed hospital capacity was entirely static and couldn't increase at all. That's an assumption any working nurse could have corrected immediately but the team responsible didn't bother asking them.

There are no experts in this disease, only people trying to control other people through false proclamations of authority.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#574

Post by orwin » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:49 AM UTC

thu2111 wrote: post #570

soamv wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did watch it. Their extrapolations were wrong. You can't just multiply positivity rate found in a biased sample by the whole population. That's not a meaningful extrapolation. Then using that extrapolation to say the death rate is low is just building up the error even more. And then, comparing that to the flu and saying this isn't much worse, we're now well into the "this video is a potentially a public health haz…

And then, comparing that to the flu and saying this isn't much worse, we're now well into the "this video is a potentially a public health hazard" territory. No, lockdowns are the public health hazard. The data is quite clear at this point that what's going on here is no worse than the flu. Here's a simple graphic from the UK to make that point clear: http://inproportion2.talkigy.com/ And if you look at when lockdown…

Well, i don't know about the us you probably have more hospital beds than us, but in france it was absolutely criticla to enforce a lockdown at the time we did. Even with this timely lockdown, we still had to stop intubating >90 yo patients for two weeks (it's getting better). And bear in mind that only a part of one region (1/13th of France basically, not really true but...), not even the whole area, and all the hospital in the region (not the hot area) were so full they had to transfert arounf 20 patients abroad and hundreds to hospital in other regions. My cousin in Colmar, eastern France (SMUR chief) has transfered around 20 people to my other cousin (intensive care anesthetist) in western Brittany. If you have a map: its basically the longest East-West travel you can do in France. In Colmar they also had to close almost all of their non-maternity, non-urgency service, and the number of people dying of overdoses or of too much alcohol (don't have the english word sorry) is at least twice as high (we will have the true numbers in a few months).

Also i've said it here before, but young, healthy people who did not had to have invasive respiration (so no ICU) still got out of their sickness with lingering asthma, possibly caused by a pulmonary fibrosis. I found this [0] in English if you don't know what it is. In five to seven years (assuming we find a vaccine for sras-cov2 in two year) we will really start counting our dead, unless we find a non-chirurgical fibrosis cure.

[0] https://lungdiseasenews.com/2017/06/16/12-facts-pulmonary-fi...

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#575

Post by wesammikhail » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 10:12 AM UTC

luminadiffusion wrote: post #572

wesammikhail wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dear Commenter, I am sorry to inform you that you do not have a PhD in online commenting and therefor are not a domain expert in online communication. For that reason your comment and opinions in the previous reply are invalid and should be de-platformed. Yours truly, Hypocrisy

> Dear Commenter, > > I am sorry to inform you that you do not have a PhD in > online commenting and therefor are not a domain expert in > online communication. For that reason your comment and > opinions in the previous reply are invalid and should be > de-platformed. > > Yours truly, > > Hypocrisy Oooooooh. This comment is so deliciously stupid that I am going to quote it verbatim in case you delete it. I would hat…

Damn, there goes my plan B!

What am I supposed to do now? I don´t have a PhD in quick rebuttals. Fuck!!! what DO I DO NOW?!

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#576

Post by jpdb » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 11:00 AM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #282

jpdb wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Put a banner up. Identify it with Mr Yuck sticker. I would consider this a form of censorship as well, and I would absolutely support it. > That we should be debating, identifying and responding to bad/poor speech. It should not be simply removed. I suppose I could agree in this particular circumstance that YouTube having some sort of banner over this content would suffice, I think it's the same thing as just remov…

Here's a noted first amendment expert explaining why "fire in a crowded theater" is a very bad example to cite: https://www.popehat.com/2012/09/19/three-generations-of-a-ha...

Interesting article! I'll try to pay more mind in the future. That said,

> First, they trot out the Holmes quote for the proposition that not all speech is protected by the First Amendment. But this is not in dispute.

Maybe not in the author's circles, but in this particular scenario, that point was in dispute.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#577

Post by username90 » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 11:13 AM UTC

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #498

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear that services should be both protected from liability as common carriers and permitted the power of the censor. Should phone companies decide who gets to make phone calls? Should they cut you off if you say things that are unpopular?

"But what YouTube is doing would clearly be bad if it was done by a totally different actor in a totally different context" simply doesn't work as a defense here. Yes, it would be bad if the phone company got to decide who made phone calls, but let's pick something closer to the actual context here: "Should comedy clubs get to decide who gets to perform on their stage? Should they stop booking you if you say things t…

> The limits on liability afforded to YouTube and similar services do not magically transform them to state actors

We are arguing that we should change the law to ensure that the principle of free speech applies to them as well. If they want to editorialize content then they should review content before it is posted rather than after. The only reason they should take something down is for legal reasons, like not having kids watch porn so no porn.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#578

Post by jpdb » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 11:29 AM UTC

irjustin wrote: post #310

jpdb wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Put a banner up. Identify it with Mr Yuck sticker. I would consider this a form of censorship as well, and I would absolutely support it. > That we should be debating, identifying and responding to bad/poor speech. It should not be simply removed. I suppose I could agree in this particular circumstance that YouTube having some sort of banner over this content would suffice, I think it's the same thing as just remov…

> I think you mixed your words up here. Yea, you're right, but thanks for getting the spirit. > Censorship that is used to silence legitimate opinions that do not cause harm to others is a terrible thing and shouldn't exist. That's your belief because "legitimate opinions". What is "legitimate opinions"? That is the crux. Your sense of justice is driving your opinions. Someone else's is going to be slightly different…

> That's your belief because "legitimate opinions". What is "legitimate opinions"? That is the crux.

I'd say this was a poor choice of words. All opinions are "legitimate" in that people actually hold them and believe in them.

> What's simply stupid vs outright dangerous?

I don't think this is hard to measure, especially since we already have tests for what is protected speech and what is not in the US. For instance, we have federal laws that stop employers or landlords from exercizing their right to free speech when it involves discrimination against certain protected classes of people. Or slander/libel, or inciting violence.

> FWIW, that's a contradictory statement. You cannot have a net-surplus of free speech by censoring. They're mutually exclusive ideas.

This is not the case, as explained above and in an earlier comment. In the US we already have laws that limit free speech, yet result in a more free society.

> But what is "good done"? More lives? More freedom?

Yes, both of these things are good and would be considered good under just about any normative ethical framework.

> All I'm trying to get you to see is that censorship is one of the most powerful tools that exist for a society. A concrete example is Singapore's fake news law.

I agree with this fully, and would condemn anyone using censorship to remove free speech that isn't harmful. I advocate for similar positions in that I am generally ok with the government jailing people (which is an act of violence) that commit crimes. The right to jail people is an even more powerful tool than censorship, but most people are ok with this being done.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#579

Post by username90 » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 11:35 AM UTC

pmarreck wrote: post #432

jdkee wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not logically follow if the general public does not have the expertise to evaluate public health policy discussions and decisions.

> if the general public does not have the expertise to evaluate public health policy discussions and decisions But you're now asking people to trust experts, which in 2020 is apparently crazy-talk

The problem is that the people who made this video are by definition experts. Experts are often wrong and disagree, so if the public listens to the wrong experts and silence the right experts we have a problem. Therefore it is better to not try to decide which experts are right or wrong so we can silence them, since chances are that the people doing the evaluation are the ones in the wrong.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#580

Post by togo » Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 11:52 AM UTC

i personally believe that freedom of info it's my right, i decide what i believe is true and what's fake or a lie, it's not for you tube to tell me what i should believe or just feed me what they consider to be true not the gov. just the fact that they gave themselves that job tells me that they are trying hard to make me believe what they consider right, true, correct, or in my best interest, which in my Case it's the opposite, there gov. business, is, has been, and always will be TO LIE TO THE PEOPLE OR US, AND THE MEDIA THEY CONTROL, WELL... COMMON, IS JUST IDIOTIC TO BELIEVE OTHER WISE, AND TRYING TO DEFEND YOU TUBE, IT'S LIKE SAYING THAT YOU TUBE IS BEEN NOTHING BUT GOOD, TRUTHFUL, NEVER MISTAKEN, common people, use your own head and come to your own conclusions, that's why we are were we are in caos thinking that the gov is trying to protect us and the news media are telling dinner truth and want to help us!! you need to be a real idiot to still think or believe that.