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YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

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Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#531
post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can view the full video here: https://www.turnto23.com/news/coronavirus/video-interview-wi... Couple of their quick mental math when asked questions were wrong but most of it is sane and matches other sources.

How is estimating a death rate of 0.01% sane and what sources do you see matching it?

Some other sources: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-prison...

This will give you a 0.01-0.03% death rate for covid-19 (Assuming 2-4% of people who goes to hospital and tested positive die.)

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#532
post #447

It's too bad that we are so quick to silence those who we perceive as wrong. Apparently, the doctors in the video were using incorrect facts; I wouldn't know, the video is gone. Discussion is being prohibited, wherever there is an approved expert to say the viewpoint is wrong. If dissention is labelled dangerous, and dissenting voices on important subjects are silenced, then we are creating an echo chamber with no re…

It's with your logic that we have the anti-vax movement, the anti-gmo one, flat-earthers and so on and so forth.

Nobody can setup a list of allowed topics, controversies or debates for society without destroying its ability to grow: any rule will eventually lead to censor a valid point.

20 years ago, when you talked about mass surveillance, you were a paranoid conspirationist or a crook.

70 years ago, when spoke against the vietnam war, you were anti-patriotic or a communist.

Not to mention we can be wrong now, or right now but wrong in the future.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#533
post #447

It's too bad that we are so quick to silence those who we perceive as wrong. Apparently, the doctors in the video were using incorrect facts; I wouldn't know, the video is gone. Discussion is being prohibited, wherever there is an approved expert to say the viewpoint is wrong. If dissention is labelled dangerous, and dissenting voices on important subjects are silenced, then we are creating an echo chamber with no re…

I found this breakdown of the claims informative: https://twitter.com/ct_bergstrom/status/1254481543759683584?...

And this found in a reply .. https://mobile.twitter.com/darakass/status/12549732188735856...

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#534
post #457
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should they have that right though? YouTube is owned by a Google, a massive, publicly-traded corporation with near-monopoly power. Are the best interests of society served by allowing it to be governed in an authoritarian, totalitarian fashion, or would it make sense, considering it is one of the most powerful mediums of speech ever created, to let it be governed by rules somewhat approximating the much-lauded, tradi…

> the much-lauded, traditional, western liberal values of free speech? Such as stopping people from saying bad words on radio/tv or stopping women from even accidentally showing a specific small part of their chest? We have a long history of direct censorship by liberal western governments for far worse reasons than saving lives. I don't see all these "free speech" advocates stepping up to stop the ongoing suppressio…

I hope they do that with videos by cnn, fox, and the world health organisation too. This video by the doctors could be a refutation to certain pieces by others, even.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? Yes, they are. https://www.dailynews.com/2020/04/28/california-doctors-with... > But public health experts were quick to debunk the doctors’ findings as misguided and riddled with statistical errors — and an example of the kind of misleading information they are forced to waste precious time disputing. > The doctors should never have assumed that…

The point here is that youtube is not a harbinger of scientific truth. These doctors present their findings with their collected data to come to this conclusion that the according to them, this virus is not dangerous and the quarantine should end. Does Youtube also censor videos where plumbers present an incorrect way to install a toilet that can lead to backflow and flooding. The point to make here is that Youtube i…

    The point here is that youtube is not a harbinger of 
    scientific truth.

    The point to make here is that Youtube is NOT the New 
    England Journal of Science and should not act like one 
    for just one topic - Coronavirus.

    If anybody feels that their data or interpreation of the 
    data is incorrect, they should post their own video on 
    Youtube, refuting their claims.
But this interpretation is wrong.

A scientific journal has a panel, which are qualified experts in the field or related fields, that read and pick up on statistical errors, and other errors, and decide whether or not to publish the paper. Youtube does not.

Peer review as a whole, means that your work gets assessed by experts, and they decide before publication if your paper is of the right quality to enter the journal.

'Peer Review' =/= 'Allowing everyone to post and the truth will be found out or agreed upon in the end'

'Peer Review' == 'Having your work assessed by equally or more skilled people, who then decide if your work is good enough to publish'

Youtube operates in a fundamentally different way to peer review, it allows anyone to post, then retroactively decides if that work meets guidelines. This means that not only is it not possible to immediately filter work that is submitted, it also does not go through proper assessment of it's validity by a panel of specialists and experts. Youtube could not operate with it's current business model using that method, and so is forced to choose another. Just because it's retroactive enforcement, doesn't mean that the terms of the service and guidelines are not in force, or should be considered censorship. Nobody is actually censoring these people, they are free to post their video literally anywhere else, but they broke the terms of the Youtube service.

As many other people have pointed out, the work produced and hosted on Youtube does contain errors, these are statistical errors that would have been caught had they submitted this to an academic journal, however the video's makers explicitly decidedin to publish it on Youtube. There is very little reason to do that, other than to market this information to others.

As this information is dubious at best, it is fundamentally and ethically irresponsible of them, as scientists, as medical workers who have taken an oath to do no harm, to publish this work on Youtube and to the public without going through the basic step that is peer review. The comments section does exist, but has no value, because you cannot count on the general public to be as informed in the subject matter as a peer review panel would be.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont get this mindset. They aren't stopping them voicing their opinions or views... they're just stopping them posting it on THEIR service. Newspapers do that all the time, TV and Radio does it all the time. Why is this different?

It's that youtube, reddit take on more of a public forum than TV, radio at least that was the feeling in the past. The idea that anyone can be a content creator is, it's supposed to be as neutral as possible. Let the world battle it out against itself. Once you start taking sides of opinions (as opposed to legal ones) then you become a content curator. For better or worse, America was built on the idea that I can hav…

Conversely, America was also founded on the rights of private property, and the shareholders of Google has delegated the power to control their property to the management team at Google, who have then implemented this policy to remove this content from their property.

Its arguable just as important for the concept of America to let owners of private property not be deprived of their freedom and liberties.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#537
post #447

It's too bad that we are so quick to silence those who we perceive as wrong. Apparently, the doctors in the video were using incorrect facts; I wouldn't know, the video is gone. Discussion is being prohibited, wherever there is an approved expert to say the viewpoint is wrong. If dissention is labelled dangerous, and dissenting voices on important subjects are silenced, then we are creating an echo chamber with no re…

Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi have since been condemned by the American Academy of Emergency Medicine (AAEM) and the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP):

https://www.aaem.org/resources/statements/joint-endorsed/phy...

> The American Academy of Emergency Medicine (AAEM) and the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) jointly and emphatically condemn the recent opinions released by Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi. These reckless and untested musings do not speak for medical society and are inconsistent with current science and epidemiology regarding COVID-19.

> COVID-19 misinformation is widespread and dangerous. Members of AAEM and ACEP are first-hand witnesses to the human toll that COVID-19 is taking on our communities. AAEM and ACEP strongly advise against using any statements of Drs. Erickson and Massihi as a basis for policy and decision making.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a difference between silencing dissenters in a scientific discussion and silencing dissenters trying to push a viewpoint to the masses that may or may not result in tens of thousands of deaths if it gets sufficient traction Interesting. So.... forbid all speech that could result in a revolution, then? Say... An American one? Or maybe a Spring one. Or a French one. I mean.. that's the standard you set up. I…

The French revolution was the worst thing to happen to humanity since the birth of the renaissance.

That was rather part of my point. "Progress" as we'd call it is dirty, messy, bloody.

Although I tend to think what the Nazis did during WWII probably wins that particular title.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#539
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly their right under ownership laws to censor on their platform. But just because it's your legal right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. The question isn't "do social media platforms have the right to censor?". The question is, "given social media platforms have the legal right to censor, should they censor?". The bill of rights is a legal document, and it can only govern the actio…

Is spam free speech? Are bookstores required to stock every book ever published? Are fraud and defamation free speech? Must newspapers post every classified ad submitted to them? Is medical advice free speech? Are government clerks required to serve verbally abusive clients? No, no, no... there are plenty of examples where the right to free speech is found to have limits. Especially when that speech violates other fr…

Well, in that case, this is unacceptable going forward.

We’re going to need a Youtube clone that has a better charter for content creators, and viewers alike.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#540

This is lazy reporting. It's not wrong, but there's no insight here. No critical assessment of the claims made in the video nor the Youtube T&C, just a few clickbaity excerpts and some reaction comments. Compare with this excellent piece by the CBC on a somewhat similar viral video in Canada: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/u-of-r-biology-p...

But that misses the point. The very fact that a few people at Google/Youtube have the power to censor whomever they want for whatever reason they choose is a problem in itself. Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? I think what they said in the video was eminently reasonable. But perhaps I'm wrong. Luckily we have the freedom to publicly critique their claims - assuming our critiques a…

You ask, "Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? I think what they said in the video was eminently reasonable."

> The American Academy of Emergency Medicine (AAEM) and the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) jointly and emphatically condemn the recent opinions released by Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi. These reckless and untested musings do not speak for medical society and are inconsistent with current science and epidemiology regarding COVID-19. As owners of local urgent care clinics, it appears these two individuals are releasing biased, non-peer reviewed data to advance their personal financial interests without regard for the public’s health.

> COVID-19 misinformation is widespread and dangerous. Members of AAEM and ACEP are first-hand witnesses to the human toll that COVID-19 is taking on our communities. AAEM and ACEP strongly advise against using any statements of Drs. Erickson and Massihi as a basis for policy and decision making.

https://www.aaem.org/resources/statements/joint-endorsed/phy...

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