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YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

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Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#291

Post by vannevar »

kolanos wrote: post #230
brlewis wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That article makes inaccurate statements like, "basically hyped a bunch of data and weren’t transparent about their methods" which is not true. There were 100% transparent about where there information was from and how they were presenting it. I can vouch for their transparency. The speed with which I was able to see that their statistical methods were totally wrong was almost entirely due to their transparency. Th…

Did you watch the video or are you just basing this on out of context quotes? What you're quoting was a brief anecdote about what those doctors were seeing on the ground. Their extrapolations are based on state-level aggregates in New York and California. Sample sizes of 300-650K patients.

I did watch the video. At about the 5-minute mark, they make a huge error in extrapolating the percent positive of tests to the general population (in California, 12% positive test rate). As many others have pointed out, that is an inexcusable error that leads them to an wildly erroneous conclusion about the mortality rate of COVID-19. Recent antibody tests in Santa Clara County and Los Angeles showed a rate around 2-4%, and those studies were criticized because those percentages are close to the levels of false positives one could expect in the antibody tests. So at best, the conclusions in the video are off by a factor of three, and most likely, more.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#292

Post by davorak »

ab_testing wrote: post #262
ceejayoz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? Yes, they are. https://www.dailynews.com/2020/04/28/california-doctors-with... > But public health experts were quick to debunk the doctors’ findings as misguided and riddled with statistical errors — and an example of the kind of misleading information they are forced to waste precious time disputing. > The doctors should never have assumed that…

The point here is that youtube is not a harbinger of scientific truth. These doctors present their findings with their collected data to come to this conclusion that the according to them, this virus is not dangerous and the quarantine should end. Does Youtube also censor videos where plumbers present an incorrect way to install a toilet that can lead to backflow and flooding. The point to make here is that Youtube i…

> The point to make here is that Youtube is NOT the New England Journal of Science and should not act like one for just one topic

Nor is cnn, fox news, msnbc, etc. They all exercise editorial control over what goes on their channel however.

The rules by which youtube exercises its editor control is its guidelines and policies from my understanding.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#293

Post by willis936 »

walterbell wrote: post #280
willis936 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prize of reducing the scenario where a tiny minority of people can legally cause the deaths of thousands of people if their fantasies are fed by the media they seek.

We have laws for murder. And for constitutional protection of speech. It's even more ludicrous that the alleged crime is statistics . Meanwhile, Imperial College statistical models were proven wrong almost immediately by Oxford University, but they are still allowed to speak after triggering hasty decisions that affected millions of lives. We are leaving unaccountable the people who literally yelled "Fire!!" to billi…

Constitutional protection of speech does not force non-governmental entities to grant a platform of speech to anyone.

Nobody is saying they have a crystal ball, but everyone is making decisions to minimize damage to society, including private platforms.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#295

Post by roywiggins »

dpatru wrote: post #201
senectus1 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont get this mindset. They aren't stopping them voicing their opinions or views... they're just stopping them posting it on THEIR service. Newspapers do that all the time, TV and Radio does it all the time. Why is this different?

> they're just stopping them posting it on THEIR service. Newspapers do that all the time, TV and Radio does it all the time. Why is this different? Newspapers, TV programs, and radio programs are publishers. In contrast, Youtube, Facebook, and other services like them are platforms. They are more like the theater building, the radio/TV station, or a telephone company. This gives them some legal protection against be…

In what sense is a radio station a platform? Most commercial radio is just piped playlists from a corporate office and a few DJs on top. Newspapers don't have to publish your letter to the editor and your local TV station won't publish your sternly worded letter either...

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#296

Post by walterbell »

willis936 wrote: post #293
walterbell wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have laws for murder. And for constitutional protection of speech. It's even more ludicrous that the alleged crime is statistics . Meanwhile, Imperial College statistical models were proven wrong almost immediately by Oxford University, but they are still allowed to speak after triggering hasty decisions that affected millions of lives. We are leaving unaccountable the people who literally yelled "Fire!!" to billi…

Constitutional protection of speech does not force non-governmental entities to grant a platform of speech to anyone. Nobody is saying they have a crystal ball, but everyone is making decisions to minimize damage to society, including private platforms.

Some people will now work to minimize damage to society by private platforms.

Google can apply arbitrary rules, but they can't claim that their decisions represent "society". There was no consultative process where society elected Google or society was asked for their opinion on censoring this particular video. In fact, "society" has immediately republished the video elsewhere.

In fact, the Streisand effect will guarantee more attention to the video (e.g. this thread). Google destroyed a huge number of comments debating the merits of the video. Previously, such destruction would have been done by book burning.

Now the debate is scattered and it is harder to address any confused people, instead of going to the number one web property for video. Way to miss the point of both speech and censorship, Google.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#297

Post by [deleted] »

dpatru wrote: post #228
paulcole wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America was built on the idea that I can have an absolutely stupid idea and that's my right. Was it though? First Amendment says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances” Until YouTube…

> Until YouTube joins the Senate, I think they’re fine doing whatever they want. I think it's reasonable to assume that the American government contains the same kind of people that are in governments the world over and throughout history. And governments have always attempted to suppress speech: that's why the First Amendment was written. Given Snowden's revelations, can you be sure that Youtube's censoring is simpl…

[deleted]

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#298

Post by Retric »

kolanos wrote: post #208
ceejayoz wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand what's wrong with the data they presented. They took stats from a massively self-selecting population - people seeking out COVID-19 testing at their facilities - and extrapolated to the general public. That's inexcusably dumb. As the bit I quoted states, that's like "estimating the average height of Americans from the players on an NBA court".

Did you watch the video? That is not what they did. What you're describing is a brief anecdote they shared about what they were seeing on the ground. Their statistics are based on state level aggregates for New York and California.

State level data is collected using the exact same methods. In many places people with symptoms are told to self isolate until they have difficulty breathing etc. This makes state level data a highly biased sample.

There are a few population studies for very specific areas, but no widespread statewide sampling anywhere.

PS: The US has ~50,000 Coronavirus deaths. Assuming a very optimistic mortality rate of 0.5% suggests at most 10 million infections out of 330 million people or 3.3%. A higher mortality rate of say 5% would mean total infections are possibility as low as 0.3% of the US population.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#299

Post by sbuttgereit »

forgot_my_pwd wrote: post #88
gmfawcett wrote: post #47

This is lazy reporting. It's not wrong, but there's no insight here. No critical assessment of the claims made in the video nor the Youtube T&C, just a few clickbaity excerpts and some reaction comments. Compare with this excellent piece by the CBC on a somewhat similar viral video in Canada: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/u-of-r-biology-p...

But that misses the point. The very fact that a few people at Google/Youtube have the power to censor whomever they want for whatever reason they choose is a problem in itself. Are the doctors in the video saying untruths or misrepresenting data? I think what they said in the video was eminently reasonable. But perhaps I'm wrong. Luckily we have the freedom to publicly critique their claims - assuming our critiques a…

It's wrong to conflate this with censorship.

A few people at Google/Youtube should absolutely have the power to allow/disallow what they want on their platform for whatever reason they choose. That is as much a freedom of speech issue as is the doctors' right to public speech.

The real problem is that Google/Youtube has special legal protections related to not having editorial controls, yet here they are exercising editorial control. That they can play it both ways is the greater tragedy.

Re: YouTube removed a viral video of two doctors calling for an end to quarantine

#300

Post by paulcole »

dpatru wrote: post #228
paulcole wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America was built on the idea that I can have an absolutely stupid idea and that's my right. Was it though? First Amendment says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances” Until YouTube…

> Until YouTube joins the Senate, I think they’re fine doing whatever they want. I think it's reasonable to assume that the American government contains the same kind of people that are in governments the world over and throughout history. And governments have always attempted to suppress speech: that's why the First Amendment was written. Given Snowden's revelations, can you be sure that Youtube's censoring is simpl…

Honestly I don’t care why YouTube censors what they censor.

The text of the amendment looks pretty clear to me. Pressuring big platforms is a world away from passing a law.

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