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Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

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Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#91

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Detrus wrote: post #17

So, did they do brain-scans of "teens" and "adults" in societies where the distinction doesn't exist? Seems like the critical piece missing from the argument. It's also possible that there was a smaller difference in the brain a few hundred years ago from factors like food availability. The current over-abundance of food is changing the the timing of puberty for example.

>The current over-abundance of food is changing the the timing of puberty for example.

Is it food availability, do you have a citation - I hypothesised that this was due to the wash of oestrogen-like chemicals and hormone disruptors in domestic use in the more developed nations.

Edit: an example citation - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthcomment/geoffrey-lean/...; other articles note the increase in the use of soya in countless processed foods and the high levels of oestrogenic chemicals it has.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#92

Post by scott_s »

hasenj wrote: post #87
scott_s wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim (P) was that "For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not much different from other adults except in that they don't have much experience in life," with the implication that (Q) "therefore they should be treated the same." If P, then Q. I'm saying P is not true. I did not say that !P is enough to say !Q. While I personally have concluded !Q, there is more to it than what I have brought up - but t…

"For all intents and purposes" sort of already implies something along the lines of "ignoring the obvious differences, etc" in the same way that 30 year olds and 50 year olds are both adults despite the age difference.

That was not what I meant in my original reply. Teenagers' brains are different from that of an adult - different in a way that a 30-year-old and a 50-year-olds brains are not different.

So, to be clear, the original claim was that teenagers are adults minus the experience. That claim is demonstrably not true. See http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1241194... or any other story that pops up when you Google "teenage brains."

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#93

Post by protomyth »

patio11 wrote: post #7

One wonders about the wisdom of treating any interaction with an adult as being tantamount to asking for sexual exploitation while simultaneously dumping kids in a youth culture which says that sex is the best thing that everyone except them is having. I had a very fortunate upbringing in a lot of ways, but I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period. That…

My Dad dragged me along when visiting his friends (still does) when I was 10 and older (maybe 9). I was expected to behave, but I he kinda made sure I would be part of the conversation. I'm 40 now, and it was good training. It still scares me to get in front of a crowd, but that early interaction lets me do it and feel ok with small groups. I also don't freak when strangers come up to me and tell me their life story.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#94

Post by nebaneba »

electromagnetic wrote: post #34
rthomas6 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that the mental differences between a 28 and 40 year old are much less, however.

I'd ask you to cite your reasoning. The average age of first child in western societies is almost hitting the 30 year old mark, so I'd argue that (in western societies at least) there is a dramatic mental difference between those in their mid 20's over those in their mid-thirties.

How does the fact that the average age of first child in western societies hitting the 30 year old mark support the argument that there is a dramatic mental difference between those in their mid-20s and those in their mid-30s?

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#95

Post by kenjackson »

patio11 wrote: post #46
kenjackson wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One wonders about the wisdom of treating any interaction with an adult as being tantamount to asking for sexual exploitation... but I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period. Did your family subscribe to any specific religion or something that would lead to this behavior? I just had never heard of something like this. Although I guess if the age span is 0…

We were a middle-class(-ish) Catholic family in the suburbs. I think alienation from the larger community is not that abnormal of an experience these days. For example, if you read books or watch TV from the fifties, you might have a twelve year old boy with a friendship with a man in the neighborhood, perhaps in the context of sharing their common interest in carpentry or fence-painting, and doing totally innocuous…

I think alienation from the larger community is not that abnormal of an experience these days.

That's quite possibly true. Maybe the plight of suburbia. While I agree that adult/child hanging out is not common, I don't think it ever was all that common. I can't imagine I'd have any reason to talk to most children. It's not that I'm afraid of a phone call, but I just don't think it would be very interesting to me.

At best I think you find that one adult who you can relate to in some offbeat way. Maybe painting fences, as you suggest. But still that just raises your number of adults to 4. It's just not common that a child will associate freely, and w/o supervision, with 150 random adults in their childhood.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#96

Post by nebaneba »

gyardley wrote: post #90
rthomas6 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I don't have enough perspective. I'm only 23, and maybe I will think that I'm dramatically different when I'm 40. Right now, it just doesn't seem like it. Then again, most teenagers think the same way about being 23 (me included).

Heh - I'm dramatically different from the 23-year-old me and I'm only 34. (And thank god, because the 23-year-old me was both insufferably stupid and didn't know it.) (Now at least I know it.)

Remind me to ask you what you think 11 years later.

At least we know there's a nonzero probability that your perceived insufferable stupidity is monotonically decreasing. :-)

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#97

Post by kenjackson »

ahoyhere wrote: post #86
Andrew_Quentin wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is your experience. Hardly the problem we all have. Do you not have uncles, did they not come for dinner, what of aunties, and did you never go to your friends house where you would meet their parents, etc. I do not think anyone isolates kids or teenagers. I think, instead, the media attempts to portray such a picture so as to sell more papers. Regarding your latter comment, in a world where you do not mix even…

It is unnatural that kids are segregated by age into "peer groups" - in school and outside school (like at lessons). What's evolutionarily normal is to have children who are surrounded by, and interact mostly, with adults, in a group where many of the people are your family. The adults bring you up to their level. The kids keep you at your current (their) level. No wonder kids today are more and more emotionally & in…

IMO the only reason that upper middle class kids today -- who are the ones always studied -- don't develop the part of the brain that connects cause & effect, & prevents risk-taking, is because they are never allowed to have enough power to fuck up.

This simply isn't consistent with those people who are given a lot of responsibility. Like those who leave home at 12 or so and go into the world on their own. You'd think they grow into the power brokers of this country, but instead they usually get the short end of the stick.

The US prison population is full of people who decided at an early age to shun their parents and branch out on their own. Although one thing I've noticed is that black people tend to think white people are really goofy -- even adults. Maybe while blacks are incarcerated at higher rates, they're actually more mature, on average.

In any case, having the shackles lifted (no adult supervision) doesn't seem to result in a better life.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#98

Post by brazzy »

giardini wrote: post #47
hasenj wrote: post #13

It's my opinion that "adolescence" is a new social construct that is not universal and not innate. It's more likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything else. In older times, teenagers (above say, 14) were considered men, or young adults. They would fight in armies, or even lead them. They were likely to be married and maybe even have children. For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not muc…

I must agree about adolescence. Consider the story of Romeo and Juliet. At an age where he has not yet grown a beard, Romeo has killed (at least) two men. He secretly marries his true love (and the Church blesses the marriage). Imagine, if you can, the reaction of parents, churches and schools today to such behavior.

There's another way to look at it (and I have to admit I read this somewhere and don't know the original well enough to judge whether it contradicts this notion): Romeo is actually much (on the order of 10 years) older than mid-teen Juliet.

And nobody considers that a scandal, compared to them acting against their families' wishes.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#99

Post by Detrus »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #91
Detrus wrote: post #17

So, did they do brain-scans of "teens" and "adults" in societies where the distinction doesn't exist? Seems like the critical piece missing from the argument. It's also possible that there was a smaller difference in the brain a few hundred years ago from factors like food availability. The current over-abundance of food is changing the the timing of puberty for example.

>The current over-abundance of food is changing the the timing of puberty for example. Is it food availability, do you have a citation - I hypothesised that this was due to the wash of oestrogen-like chemicals and hormone disruptors in domestic use in the more developed nations. Edit: an example citation - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthcomment/geoffrey-lean/... ; other articles note the increase in the use of…

http://www.cfah.org/hbns/archives/viewSupportDoc.cfm?support...

http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/5/668

Could be chemicals, could be nutrition or genetics, doesn't look like they pinned it down. But in the context of this discussion, culture shouldn't be the only culprit.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#100

Post by ahoyhere »

kenjackson wrote: post #97
ahoyhere wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is unnatural that kids are segregated by age into "peer groups" - in school and outside school (like at lessons). What's evolutionarily normal is to have children who are surrounded by, and interact mostly, with adults, in a group where many of the people are your family. The adults bring you up to their level. The kids keep you at your current (their) level. No wonder kids today are more and more emotionally & in…

IMO the only reason that upper middle class kids today -- who are the ones always studied -- don't develop the part of the brain that connects cause & effect, & prevents risk-taking, is because they are never allowed to have enough power to fuck up. This simply isn't consistent with those people who are given a lot of responsibility. Like those who leave home at 12 or so and go into the world on their own. You'd thin…

Straw man argument. I never said "stop supervising kids at 10 years old" or "12 year olds should leave home." Neither did I say that kids from impoverished homes fare better on cognitive tests. Ludicrous.
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