Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist. • Hacker News Board

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#41

Post by forkandwait » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 5:20 AM UTC

gruseom wrote: post #36

forkandwait wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of being pretentious, I would say that what we all yearn for is (Heidegger's idea and vocabulary): "spatio-temporal ecstasis" -- the feeling that our self is expanding into the world, quickly and far. I get it when I learn more math -- I can feel my power or whatever it is expand into world. Teens in a good environment get it when they do their homework -- they know they are expanding and they feel it. Al…

The classical notion of ecstasis is to be outside oneself, as in the phrase "beside oneself with joy". That's very different from inhabiting an expanded self. Are you saying that Heidegger revised the classical notion? If so, did he do this as part of an extended critique? Nietzsche was a classicist and Heidegger's whole philosophy (if I remember grad school) was about taking off from classical roots, so it's unlikel…

> The classical notion of ecstasis is to be outside oneself, as in the phrase "beside oneself with joy".

Heidegger didn't really believe in a transcendent self, as far as my very amateur reading can tell. Rather, I think he was critiquing all things transcendent (yeah, Plato and Kant), and trying to show how things and experience would feel transcendent, even if they aren't.

I also think he used a lot of irony -- he talks about authenticity, and he sort of means it but he also sort thinks that any personal transcendence is just balderdash; so authenticity is facing both death and the lack of any final answer as to what is authentic. (All that a Dasein "is" is something that wonders what it "is". This self-questioning of being, or "is-ness", of both the world and ourselves, is fundamental to the human condition, and is where the "Being" of "Being in Time" comes from.)

Re ecstasis: He was talking about the phenomenological experience of interacting with the world. And I interpret "ecstasis" to mean "the process of expansion into the world" -- sort of getting outside one's "self", but with a sort of ironic notion of selfhood. Again, there is irony and allusion to the classical notion, but recast in his own phenomenology.

My rather loose interpetation of Nietzsche is that supposedly nietzschean self assertion is not really Nietzschean at all, but rather naive and foolish and immature. Zarathustra counsels against going to the city and indulging in pleasure.

YMMV -- I am just a guy talking in a bar about these things.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#42

Post by gruseom » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 5:31 AM UTC

forkandwait wrote: post #41

gruseom wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classical notion of ecstasis is to be outside oneself, as in the phrase "beside oneself with joy". That's very different from inhabiting an expanded self. Are you saying that Heidegger revised the classical notion? If so, did he do this as part of an extended critique? Nietzsche was a classicist and Heidegger's whole philosophy (if I remember grad school) was about taking off from classical roots, so it's unlikel…

> The classical notion of ecstasis is to be outside oneself, as in the phrase "beside oneself with joy". Heidegger didn't really believe in a transcendent self, as far as my very amateur reading can tell. Rather, I think he was critiquing all things transcendent (yeah, Plato and Kant), and trying to show how things and experience would feel transcendent, even if they aren't. I also think he used a lot of irony -- he…

I appreciate the reply, but I don't know what most of these words mean.

I guess the advantage of talking in a bar is that you can get an intuitive read of where the other person is coming from, then line up your personal vocabulary to better match theirs. This makes for more satisfying communication. Online discourse seems particularly ill-suited to talking about anything hard to define.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#43

Post by patio11 » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 5:36 AM UTC

ajju wrote: post #38

patio11 wrote: post #7

One wonders about the wisdom of treating any interaction with an adult as being tantamount to asking for sexual exploitation while simultaneously dumping kids in a youth culture which says that sex is the best thing that everyone except them is having. I had a very fortunate upbringing in a lot of ways, but I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period. That…

I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period. Don't mean to pry, so feel free to ignore this, but how do you reckon not talking to more than 3 adults over a 8 year period is fortunate? I am genuinely interested, not being facetious.

I seem to be causing a lot of parsing errors this week: despite being extremely satisfied with my upbringing, I think the fact that I talked to only 3 adults in 8 years is a symptom of a problematic mindset which has negative effects in our society. Hermetically sealing off teenagers in a child's world, where they perpetually lack responsibility for anything or authority to do anything, is borked.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#44

Post by wtn » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 5:46 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #43

ajju wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period. Don't mean to pry, so feel free to ignore this, but how do you reckon not talking to more than 3 adults over a 8 year period is fortunate? I am genuinely interested, not being facetious.

I seem to be causing a lot of parsing errors this week: despite being extremely satisfied with my upbringing, I think the fact that I talked to only 3 adults in 8 years is a symptom of a problematic mindset which has negative effects in our society. Hermetically sealing off teenagers in a child's world, where they perpetually lack responsibility for anything or authority to do anything, is borked.

Oh, the problem wasn't with your text--it was with the parser.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#45

Post by wtn » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 5:50 AM UTC

electromagnetic wrote: post #35

ardit33 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not much different from other adults except in that they don't have much experience in life." I totally disagree on this. There are remarkable physical differences between a 16 yo, and a 28yo. Your mental capabilities are different, your hormonal level is completely different etc. Yes, there are cultures or where teens are forced to act as adults to function in soci…

> (BTW, I am 30, and when I was 16 I was basically acting as supervisor of a team of 12 workers when my family was building the house due to my father having heart problems. Yes, I was good with money, I could negotiate some, tell people what to do to a certain point, but I lacked emotional intelligence, tact, or general maturity to handle more finer problems). So basically you're saying you was more adept at 16 with…

If you read between the lines, the authority of his office made it possible (and necessary) to order people around, but he didn't have the experience and training to be charismatic about it--he had not yet developed leadership skills.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#46

Post by patio11 » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 5:50 AM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #23

patio11 wrote: post #7

One wonders about the wisdom of treating any interaction with an adult as being tantamount to asking for sexual exploitation while simultaneously dumping kids in a youth culture which says that sex is the best thing that everyone except them is having. I had a very fortunate upbringing in a lot of ways, but I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period. That…

One wonders about the wisdom of treating any interaction with an adult as being tantamount to asking for sexual exploitation... but I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period. Did your family subscribe to any specific religion or something that would lead to this behavior? I just had never heard of something like this. Although I guess if the age span is 0…

We were a middle-class(-ish) Catholic family in the suburbs. I think alienation from the larger community is not that abnormal of an experience these days.

For example, if you read books or watch TV from the fifties, you might have a twelve year old boy with a friendship with a man in the neighborhood, perhaps in the context of sharing their common interest in carpentry or fence-painting, and doing totally innocuous things like having iced tea together during summer. Are you of the impression that remains normal behavior today?

I would be scared out of my wits if a neighborhood kid took a shine on me and started coming over to my house to say hello. That's one worried phone call from mom away from my life being ruined.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#47

Post by giardini » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 6:03 AM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #13

It's my opinion that "adolescence" is a new social construct that is not universal and not innate. It's more likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything else. In older times, teenagers (above say, 14) were considered men, or young adults. They would fight in armies, or even lead them. They were likely to be married and maybe even have children. For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not muc…

I must agree about adolescence.

Consider the story of Romeo and Juliet. At an age where he has not yet grown a beard, Romeo has killed (at least) two men. He secretly marries his true love (and the Church blesses the marriage).

Imagine, if you can, the reaction of parents, churches and schools today to such behavior.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#48

Post by giardini » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 6:08 AM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #2

I was surprised when I learned that adolescence was first described in the early 20th century. That was around the same time children stopped regularly working with their parents in the family business/farm. As a society, parents have abdicated the "final transision" to adulthood to the school systems, but that isn't working, so kids have no clear path to "adulthood" and, instead, wander aimlessly. Personally, I thin…

SoftwareMaven says:

"I'm always looking for good reading on this subject (truly guiding your kids to adulthood), so if you have any good pointers, send them on!"

Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#49

Post by wisty » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 6:17 AM UTC

teyc wrote: post #21

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #2

I was surprised when I learned that adolescence was first described in the early 20th century. That was around the same time children stopped regularly working with their parents in the family business/farm. As a society, parents have abdicated the "final transision" to adulthood to the school systems, but that isn't working, so kids have no clear path to "adulthood" and, instead, wander aimlessly. Personally, I thin…

Formal education is probably the culprit here. It segments young adults into age groups, and then limits the entire days interaction to the same lot of children. You can't define people simply by what year they are born in. Some family environments provide children with an outlet where they end up with a very mature outlook, others don't. The problem with this stratification is that it soon becomes the "norm" for chi…

I'd blame homework, not education in general. Kids have gone to school since Shakespeare's time. But they went home and either helped their dad on the farm, helped their mum do the housework, got a part time job, or read books and hunted crawdads.

Now, many people would consider it abuse, forcing a child of 14 to help out at work. Especially if they were only paid a nominal fee. They should be doing their homework, getting one-up on their peers. Unless they are from a family that doesn't value education, and then they should be learning to cope with a job market that won't value them.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#50

Post by patio11 » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 6:23 AM UTC

wtn wrote: post #44

patio11 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be causing a lot of parsing errors this week: despite being extremely satisfied with my upbringing, I think the fact that I talked to only 3 adults in 8 years is a symptom of a problematic mindset which has negative effects in our society. Hermetically sealing off teenagers in a child's world, where they perpetually lack responsibility for anything or authority to do anything, is borked.

Oh, the problem wasn't with your text--it was with the parser.

I deny the possibility of such a thing: I'm the professional communicator. If I get misunderstood then there was an opportunity for me to have phrased it better.

(Ditto for when Mrs. Smith thinks she was triple charged by The Googles for her software because she thinks one mail from me, one mail from Google, and one confirmation page counts as three charges. Not her fault -- my fault. I live and breathe e-commerce -- I should have made that more clear for someone who might only buy one thing online ever.)