Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist. • Hacker News Board

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#21

Post by teyc » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 3:15 AM UTC

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #2

I was surprised when I learned that adolescence was first described in the early 20th century. That was around the same time children stopped regularly working with their parents in the family business/farm. As a society, parents have abdicated the "final transision" to adulthood to the school systems, but that isn't working, so kids have no clear path to "adulthood" and, instead, wander aimlessly. Personally, I thin…

Formal education is probably the culprit here. It segments young adults into age groups, and then limits the entire days interaction to the same lot of children.

You can't define people simply by what year they are born in. Some family environments provide children with an outlet where they end up with a very mature outlook, others don't.

The problem with this stratification is that it soon becomes the "norm" for children. My kids would say, for example, he wouldn't talk to some other kids because they are in another grade or in another class. It is a totally artificial barrier.

In days past, you'd have a grandfather or grandmother around. Kids would hang around their uncles and cousins workshops. There no distinct border. Children can see how they are expected to transition from one role to another.

Fast forward to the present day, the "teen" is now effectively a market segment, and it has become "weird" or uncomfortable to deal with kids who are too young for them or adults who are uncool for them. The narrative behind TV shows and books only serve to reinforce this.

As parents, we have a duty to help our children recognize these artificial barriers and help them overcome these perception.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#22

Post by DanielBMarkham » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 3:27 AM UTC

I find the thrust of this article fascinating -- it makes sense intuitively.

But the following quote clearly sounded over the top: Teens are subject to, Epstein explains, “…more than 10 times as many restrictions as are mainstream adults, twice as many restrictions as active-duty U.S. Marines, and even twice as many restrictions as incarcerated felons.”

I'd sure like to see some proof of that. Surely teens get a raw deal, but to that extent? It set off my "critical thinking" alarm.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#23

Post by kenjackson » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 3:29 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #7

One wonders about the wisdom of treating any interaction with an adult as being tantamount to asking for sexual exploitation while simultaneously dumping kids in a youth culture which says that sex is the best thing that everyone except them is having. I had a very fortunate upbringing in a lot of ways, but I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period. That…

One wonders about the wisdom of treating any interaction with an adult as being tantamount to asking for sexual exploitation... but I think I talked to maybe three adults who were not parents, teachers, or family in an eight year period.

Did your family subscribe to any specific religion or something that would lead to this behavior? I just had never heard of something like this. Although I guess if the age span is 0-8 there's really not that many adults to interact with who aren't family or teachers. It's not like you're going to work or having lunch dates. And it's not like some random 32 year old is going to come over to just hang out. But still, it seems odd to even think that either you were being specifically shielded or you thought you were.

At age 8, or even 10, I never though, "I wish I could talk to more adults". If anything, I probably would've like to talk to fewer adults. :-)

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#24

Post by skeltoac » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 3:33 AM UTC

Early 20th-century child labor laws were a misguided attempt to solve an important problem (the exploitation of a specific class of workers). The evil they meant to prevent is child abuse, which is a subset of basic human rights abuse.

Abuse is a violation of a right. What rights do children have that adults lack? What rights do we lose when we reach the age of majority? That's a hard way to look at this problem from a society that purports to grant additional rights (or to lift prohibitions) as a person ages.

Many of us on HN understand that non-academic labor is the best way to gain experiences that we find indispensable in the pursuit of happiness. Withholding opportunities from minors is an even greater abuse than the working conditions that prompted the prohibition of child labor and compulsory schooling.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#25

Post by amalcon » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 3:34 AM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #22

I find the thrust of this article fascinating -- it makes sense intuitively. But the following quote clearly sounded over the top: Teens are subject to, Epstein explains, “…more than 10 times as many restrictions as are mainstream adults, twice as many restrictions as active-duty U.S. Marines, and even twice as many restrictions as incarcerated felons.” I'd sure like to see some proof of that. Surely teens get a raw…

I'd be interested to know how to even count "how many" restrictions one is subject to.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#26

Post by hasenj » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 3:43 AM UTC

mml wrote: post #8

I heard a longish npr interview with mr. Epstein, and found his theories to be so startlingly simple and obvious, so in line with all my experiences, that I was utterly confounded as to how nobody had mentioned it before. Most compelling were his discussions about the -numerous- societies around the world who don't even have a word for "teen". That, and his observations regarding how young adults are segregated from…

> numerous societies around the world who don't even have a word for "teen"

Arabic doesn't have a word for teens (not even a loan word), but they have a word for adolescence.

This may be a bit embarrassing, but I only recently understood the real meaning of "teenager". I used to think it's just an arbitrary word that has the same meaning as "youth".

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#27

Post by ardit33 » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 3:58 AM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #13

It's my opinion that "adolescence" is a new social construct that is not universal and not innate. It's more likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything else. In older times, teenagers (above say, 14) were considered men, or young adults. They would fight in armies, or even lead them. They were likely to be married and maybe even have children. For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not muc…

"For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not much different from other adults except in that they don't have much experience in life."

I totally disagree on this. There are remarkable physical differences between a 16 yo, and a 28yo.

Your mental capabilities are different, your hormonal level is completely different etc.

Yes, there are cultures or where teens are forced to act as adults to function in society, but that doesn't make them they have the same capabilities as of an adult, be either physical, or emotional/mental.

And, traditionally armies are staffed with 17-20 yo. Do you know why? Because they make better cannon fodder, and more likely to obey orders, take higher risks, which are correlated with the high testosterone levels that teens do have.

(BTW, I am 30, and when I was 16 I was basically acting as supervisor of a team of 12 workers when my family was building the house due to my father having heart problems. Yes, I was good with money, I could negotiate some, tell people what to do to a certain point, but I lacked emotional intelligence, tact, or general maturity to handle more finer problems).

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#28

Post by scott_s » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 4:09 AM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #13

It's my opinion that "adolescence" is a new social construct that is not universal and not innate. It's more likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything else. In older times, teenagers (above say, 14) were considered men, or young adults. They would fight in armies, or even lead them. They were likely to be married and maybe even have children. For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not muc…

For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not much different from other adults except in that they don't have much experience in life.

This is demonstrably not true, and even says so in the article. The brains of a teenager are different than that of an adult. The question the article is asking is not "Are they differen?" because we know they are. The question the article is asking is "Is this difference caused by culture or biology?"

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#29

Post by nostrademons » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 4:10 AM UTC

ardit33 wrote: post #27

hasenj wrote: post #13

It's my opinion that "adolescence" is a new social construct that is not universal and not innate. It's more likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything else. In older times, teenagers (above say, 14) were considered men, or young adults. They would fight in armies, or even lead them. They were likely to be married and maybe even have children. For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not muc…

"For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not much different from other adults except in that they don't have much experience in life." I totally disagree on this. There are remarkable physical differences between a 16 yo, and a 28yo. Your mental capabilities are different, your hormonal level is completely different etc. Yes, there are cultures or where teens are forced to act as adults to function in soci…

There are pretty remarkable physical differences between a 28yo and a 40yo, yet the legal and cultural differences between those ages are quite a bit less than between 16 and 28.

Re: Are "teens" born or made? An interesting twist.

#30

Post by sliverstorm » Tue, Mar 08, 2011, 4:18 AM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #13

It's my opinion that "adolescence" is a new social construct that is not universal and not innate. It's more likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything else. In older times, teenagers (above say, 14) were considered men, or young adults. They would fight in armies, or even lead them. They were likely to be married and maybe even have children. For all intents and purposes, people of age 16 are not muc…

I would agree on the construct part. Once, in college as a senior, an organization I was a member of was being criticized by an administrator who said, and I quote:

"You know what the problem with your org is- there's not enough adult supervision"

Keep in mind I was 23, and everyone in the room was over 20.