I’m so sick of these hatchet jobs on long dead people. If you are not empathetic enough to put yourself in the position of a different society, you’re probably not empathic enough to criticize a persons character. Additionally, I don’t care if he was sexist. We don’t like Feynman because he was a feminist. We like Feynman because he led the charge in scientific discovery and progress. No one is perfect.
"The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there, don't be an ugly tourist. "
Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy
31–40 of 49 posts
Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy
#32The article quotes Feynman's memoirs is a highly misleading way. It says: > Such behavior is chronicled in a notorious chapter of his autobiography, Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman! (“I adopted the attitude that those bar girls are all bitches, that they aren’t worth anything, and all they’re in there for is to get you to buy them a drink, and they’re not going to give you a goddamn thing”). This suggests that the…
On the other hand, I'm in one of the departments Feynman had an appointment with for a few years. Some of the older faculty overlapped with him and have fun stories to share. However, one of the lasting memories of his stay was how he was predatory towards the undergraduate women. In fact, it was to the point that some people speculate that he was forced to the leave the department after sleeping with too many of his students.
I still look up to Feynman for his science, but there were some real problems with how he treated women. Even if the article didn't do a great job of presenting the evidence for it. Besides Surely you're Joking is Feynman as portrayed by Feynman. He's famously a showman and isn't going to create an image of himself in the book that he doesn't think is likeable. Interestingly, from what I remember reading, he also did a lot to support the female scientists in his life including his sister.
Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy
#33In this sense he was a guide, saying, "Don't worry, this is a journey we can go on together, and parts of it you have traveled before". He makes you believe you can understand something (or frankly tells us when we can't), which seems the ideal mental state for difficult subject matter.
Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy
#34I'm not sure a lot of the comments here have read Feynman's memoir. As much as he was a brilliant scientist, his attitude towards women does show. That chapter is chilling, it reads like a post on an incel group. Sure he was in a more sexist society. But the reason this still matters is that it represents the sexist culture that's still around in science today. It's not about the man it's a bigger discussion on an in…
The impression I got after reading "Surely, You're Joking, Mr. Feynman" was not that Feynman was sexist (though I did raise my eyebrows a few times), but that he laundered his vanity via manufactured anecdotes about himself. When I say manufactured , I don't mean "false", I mean he subtly (but actively) manipulated the (otherwise ordinary) situations he found himself in such that they would turn into interesting or e…
I recall the story of the Oak Ridge plant, where they think he is a great Genius yet he clearly illustrates he is not.
wait, here it is:
I took mechanical drawing when I was in school, but I am not good at reading blueprints. So they unroll the stack of blueprints and start to explain it to me, thinking I am a genius. Now, one of the things they had to avoid in the plant was accumulation. They had problems like when there's an evaporator working, which is trying to accumulate the stuff, if the valve gets stuck or something like that and too much stuff accumulates, it'll explode. So they explained to me that this plant is designed so that if any one valve gets stuck nothing will happen. It needs at least two valves everywhere.
Then they explain how it works. The carbon tetrachloride comes in here, the uranium nitrate from here comes in here, it goes up and down, it goes up through the floor, comes up through the pipes, coming up from the second floor, bluuuuurp--going through the stack of blueprints, downup- down-up, talking very fast, explaining the very very complicated chemical plant.
I'm completely dazed, Worse, I don't know what the symbols on the blueprint mean! There is some kind of a thing that at first I think is a window. It's a square with a little cross in the middle, all over the damn place. I think it's a window, but no, it can't be a window, because it isn't always at the edge. I want to ask them what it is.
You must have been in a situation like this when you didn't ask them right away. Right away it would have been OK. But now they've been talking a little bit too long. You hesitated too long. If you ask them now they'll say "What are you wasting my time all this time for?"
What am I going to do? I get an idea. Maybe it's a valve.
I take my finger and I put it down on one of the mysterious little crosses in the middle of one of the blueprints on page three, and I say "What happens if this valve gets stuck?" --figuring they're going to say "That's not a valve, sir, that's a window."
So one looks at the other and says, "Well, if that valve gets stuck--" and he goes up and down on the blueprint, up and down, the other guy goes up and down, back and forth, back and forth, and they both look at each other. They turn around to me and they open their mouths like astonished fish and say "You're absolutely right, sir."
So they rolled up the blueprints and away they went and we walked out. And Mr. Zumwalt, who had been following me all the way through, said, "You're a genius. I got the idea you were a genius when you went through the plant once and you could tell them about evaporator C-21 in building 90-207 the next morning," he says, "but what you have just done is so fantastic I want to know how, how do you do that?"
I told him you try to find out whether it's a valve or not.
So... self-aggrandizement? self-deprecating? educational? or just entertainment?
Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy
#35Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy
#36In the past there were two kinds of Feynman articles:
1) Glowing, without reservation, and notably ignoring some of his sexist views, statements, and actions
2) Conflicted and accusatory - tainting a wonderful educator and brilliant innovator as irredeemable. Someone who we should stop worshipping because of his problematic points of view.
The truth is both. And this article acknowledges and leans into it. We should strive to celebrate the best of Feynman, and apply his joy and wonder of science into our lives. But we should be aware of his more prickly and selfish aspects, and seek to not fall into the same trappings.
I think this article is great, and is a good template for approaching other flawed legends.
Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy
#37What is 'sometimes sexist attitudes' doing there? I've read his memoirs and his lectures, and I saw some of his challenger stuff on youtube. I dont really see this. Now he lived in a more sexist culture than we do, so maybe that has something to do with it?
Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy
#38What is 'sometimes sexist attitudes' doing there? I've read his memoirs and his lectures, and I saw some of his challenger stuff on youtube. I dont really see this. Now he lived in a more sexist culture than we do, so maybe that has something to do with it?
Didn't you know? Everyone living more than 40 years ago is a racist, sexist, homophobic, neanderthal.
Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy
#39I'm not sure a lot of the comments here have read Feynman's memoir. As much as he was a brilliant scientist, his attitude towards women does show. That chapter is chilling, it reads like a post on an incel group. Sure he was in a more sexist society. But the reason this still matters is that it represents the sexist culture that's still around in science today. It's not about the man it's a bigger discussion on an in…
I don't understand why people on this forum are so uncomfortable when it comes to nuance about interpersonal behaviour across genders.
Feynman was a brilliant genius and educator. He also had some fucked up attitudes towards women he considered sexual targets (less so those he saw as intellectual peers). These are both facts.
The second does not negate the first. We have to understand and embrace both.
My suspicion is people get into such deep denial about it because they themselves hold indefensible positions. But recognizing problematic behaviours does not taint the entire person. Acknowledging that you have opportunities for improvements with egalitarian treatment of other genders and races does not make you a bad person. Feynman can't change - his attitudes are frozen in stone, or at least in the written word. The rest of us can though.
Re: Feynman: making the extraordinary look easy
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
The impression I got after reading "Surely, You're Joking, Mr. Feynman" was not that Feynman was sexist (though I did raise my eyebrows a few times), but that he laundered his vanity via manufactured anecdotes about himself. When I say manufactured , I don't mean "false", I mean he subtly (but actively) manipulated the (otherwise ordinary) situations he found himself in such that they would turn into interesting or e…
Well, from what I've read, I think he still does it all to #1 educate and #2 entertain. (and #2 is a multiplier for #1) I recall the story of the Oak Ridge plant, where they think he is a great Genius yet he clearly illustrates he is not. wait, here it is: I took mechanical drawing when I was in school, but I am not good at reading blueprints. So they unroll the stack of blueprints and start to explain it to me, thin…
1) As smart as you think you are, or as smart as you think OTHERS are, EVERYONE goes through moments when they feel stupid, overwhelmed, and overmatched intellectually.
2) Even the smartest people are bad at some things (e.g. reading blueprints)
3) Ultimately you have to be comfortable with asking stupid questions, ESPECIALLY when people think you're smart. (Note - he didn't ask hoping he asked something smart, or provided value. You have to have the intellectual confidence to look stupid sometimes)
4) Your instincts will still help you even in situations where you are overmatched or under-prepared. Have the humility not to over rely on them, but don't hold back ideas - you never know when they might be helpful.
These lessons are universal for any professional.