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How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

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Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#121

I am from Naples and eat regularly at Gino Sorbillo's and Ciro Salvo's places. As it often happens here, everyone will swear by its pretty small and obscure "favorite place", but they are masters without doubt ;) The dough recipe from the article is pretty legit and exactly the way I do it at home; the main problem I see is that it would be pretty hard to find good Mozzarella or Fiordilatte cheese (Fiordilatte di Age…

Isn't the oven one of the keys? And how true is that 'leopard spots' on the cornicione is a sign of a well made pizza?

It is, because it has to deliver heat from the bottom at high temperature and for a pretty short time (around two minutes); it's not that unusual in Naples to have a wood oven in our vacation homes, but in the city many live in condos so it's impossible.

Leopard spots, also called "maculatura" or "mako" in some pizza-lovers forums, is considered by some a mark of perfect maturation of the "panetto" (the little bread, i.e. the dough used for a single pizza); to be honest it's quite a mystery to me how to obtain a good one, and as it often happens in this matters reality tends to conflate with legend: I've also heard sometimes that it is a sign of temperature mismanagement of the panetto, and I am not experienced enough to have a say on this :)

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#122

My favorite read on pizza: http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

Damn, he bakes those at 825F (440 °C), which unfortunately is unattainable with most regular home ovens. Mine e.g. maxes out at 300 °C so it's not hot enough to let the crust rise significantly and produce a nicely charred underside, at least not before completely burning the top. What I'm currently experimenting with to solve this problem is to put the pizza on a flat, heavy and preheated iron pan or plancha and hea…

> he bakes those at 825F (440 °C), which unfortunately is unattainable with most regular home ovens

He was using a regular home oven, subverting the cleaning cycle: "The cabinet of most ovens is obviously designed for serious heat because the cleaning cycle will top out at over 975 which is the max reading on my Raytec digital infrared thermometer. The outside of the cabinet doesn't even get up to 85F when the oven is at 800 inside. So I clipped off the lock using garden shears so I could run it on the cleaning cycle. I pushed a piece of aluminum foil into the door latch (the door light switch) so that electronics don't think I've broken some rule by opening the door when it thinks it's locked. ..."

Scroll down to "4- The Oven" in http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm

Impressive dedication, which he eventually turned into a restaurant: http://www.varasanos.com/

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#123
Personally, I like my Pizazz Pizza plate/oven thing. I make dough out of like 5 ingredients and let it rise for a few hours in the fridge. Top with whatever and eat--pizza is about enjoyment to me, not this Anthony Bourdain never ending quest for the perfect slice of sushi, its about making it, enjoying it, eating it.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#124

I am from Naples and eat regularly at Gino Sorbillo's and Ciro Salvo's places. As it often happens here, everyone will swear by its pretty small and obscure "favorite place", but they are masters without doubt ;) The dough recipe from the article is pretty legit and exactly the way I do it at home; the main problem I see is that it would be pretty hard to find good Mozzarella or Fiordilatte cheese (Fiordilatte di Age…

Ciao, Come siete ? I'm not sure if you have ever been to NYC but an interesting observation I have had with Gino Sorbillo is the pizza in Napoli is very good, but he/they opened a restaurant in NYC and it's absolutely average at best. I assume they import everything, but quality wise, the places are polar opposites. Also curious your thoughts of Da Michele?

Try Pizzarte and Naples 45 in Midtown

And for a different type of pizza but honestly my favorite pizza on Earth, try the Portobello pizza at Mediterraneo on the UES. They have no idea how good that pizza is otherwise they'd turn the whole place into a pizzeria and just do that everyday

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#125
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a quick pizza, I use a "Ooni" pizza oven and the results have been great. It's relatively cheap and you can get the temperatures you are looking for. I joined their first kickstarter and have been buying their ovens ever since: https://uk.ooni.com/collections/shop-all/products/ooni-koda

For years I've dreamed of building a wood-fired pizza oven, or buying one of the cast kits from https://www.fornobravo.com/ . But this looks way easier and cheaper. How long does a gas cylinder last?

My parents have a wood fired, and I have an Ooni Koda. I can compare:

- The base is better on the wood fired oven. The Kodas stone doesn't get hot enough. I've read recommendations to replace the stone with a steel, because it's more conductive.

- The koda heats up in a timescale I'm ok with. Like, 20 minutes. For the wood fired oven, it usually takes about 2 hours for the oven itself to be hot enough, but you really want the oven to be completely saturated with heat. This can take over 4 hours.

- I've had the Koda about 6 months now, and used it about 20 times. It hasn't really registered on the meter attached to my 13 kg gas bottle, and this is the only thing I use it for. I'm not at all concerned about the gas usage, even when its used a refill is cheap.

- The wood oven, in contrast, goes through wood significantly faster than our wood burning stove.

- I can do more with the wood oven, like bread, or roasts. The profile of the Koda means my normal cookware doesn't fit, and while I'm ok with buying Ooni's low profile cast iron, I just haven't done it yet. That said, while I like the idea of cooking food under real fire with smoke and intense direct heat, I don't see that with essentially a big gas oven. I have other tools.

- I can take the Koda anywhere, but when my parents move house there's no chance the wood oven moves.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#126
I can't speak to pizza, but I have an espresso story to tell.

One of my favorite things about going to Italy is the quality of the coffee. I really like extreme dark roast (your typical American diner coffee doesn't even count as coffee in my book). In Italy you can go into pretty much any coffee shop and come away with a top-quality espresso. (Don't even get me started on Starbucks.) It's a taste I inherited from my parents, who have European roots.

Now, my parents are seriously old-school. They still live in the house I grew up in, a house they bought new in 1975 and pretty much never updated. It still has the original flower-pattern wall paper. Walking into their house today feels like stepping into a time machine that transports you to an episode of the Brady Bunch. And in their kitchen is a 40-year-old Mr. Coffee which my father loves to futz with. On a good day he can coax it into producing an acceptable cup of joe, but that's about it. So for their 50th anniversary I decided I was going to buy them a proper espresso machine.

Now, I know next to nothing about espresso except that I love to drink it, so I started doing some homework and very soon got lost in a morass of coffee geekdom. The range of options available in the espresso machine market is truly mind-boggling, as are the prices. I didn't mind dropping some serious coin (this was their 50th anniversary after all) but I wanted to make sure I was actually getting something for my money. So I decided to do some experiments.

At the time I worked in a co-working office that had a high-end espresso machine (retail price $5000) and several Italians so I asked one of them to show me how to make a proper espresso. I wanted to use the espresso that came out of the office machine as a baseline and compare it to what I could make on a less expensive machine to see if the machine actually made a difference. "The first thing you have to do," he told me, "is to get the right beans. You have to go to this little specialty shop that's a half-hour drive away and get this particular brand of beans..." which, of course, cost $50 a pound or something absurd like that. But I love my parents, so I dutifully complied.

Proper beanage having been procured, we spent several hours brewing espresso with just about every possible variation on the theme you could imagine. Different grinds (we had a high-end burr grinder in the office too), different packings, different machine settings. Not once did we manage to produce a cup that any of us considered even remotely drinkable. It was all acidic and awful, probably because the machine had never been cleaned since it was installed god-only-knows how many years before.

I ended up getting them a Keurig. I got one for myself too. It makes a decent cup of coffee, but nothing compared to what you find in Italy. It is still a mystery to me how the Italians manage to produce such consistently good coffee, but only in Italy. When they come to the U.S. they seem to lose the touch. Maybe there's something in the water.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#127

Our last attempt: https://www.instagram.com/p/B_TDukylKSj/ We made it in a regular home oven but on maximum temperature of 285°C (545°F) and broiler on. It takes no more than 2-3 minutes. We followed this recipe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-SJGQ2HLp8

I'm curious, do you have a very thin layer of seemingly uncooked/raw/wet dough just under the tomato sauce? We use a high quality pizza steel, run our oven at max heat and preheat everything for 45 minutes, but that layer is always there.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#128
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, he bakes those at 825F (440 °C), which unfortunately is unattainable with most regular home ovens. Mine e.g. maxes out at 300 °C so it's not hot enough to let the crust rise significantly and produce a nicely charred underside, at least not before completely burning the top. What I'm currently experimenting with to solve this problem is to put the pizza on a flat, heavy and preheated iron pan or plancha and hea…

The high heat drives moisture out of the ingredients faster than the moisture can collect on the top of the pizza. You can simply remove the moisture from the ingredients ahead of time. I make the marinara & set the sauce in a fine strainer in a pot, and let it drain for at least 45, preferably an hour. For the mozzarella, I put down a cutting board, a towel, some paper towel, the cheese, then reverse the whole proce…

Does removing the moisture prevent that thin layer of raw/uncooked/wet dough just under the marinara sauce? That's my biggest problem with making pizza at home and I thought it was because I just couldn't get my home oven hot enough.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#129
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, he bakes those at 825F (440 °C), which unfortunately is unattainable with most regular home ovens. Mine e.g. maxes out at 300 °C so it's not hot enough to let the crust rise significantly and produce a nicely charred underside, at least not before completely burning the top. What I'm currently experimenting with to solve this problem is to put the pizza on a flat, heavy and preheated iron pan or plancha and hea…

> he bakes those at 825F (440 °C), which unfortunately is unattainable with most regular home ovens He was using a regular home oven, subverting the cleaning cycle: "The cabinet of most ovens is obviously designed for serious heat because the cleaning cycle will top out at over 975 which is the max reading on my Raytec digital infrared thermometer. The outside of the cabinet doesn't even get up to 85F when the oven i…

Ah I see, interesting! I think they call that pyrolytic cleaning in Europe. The problem with that is that some ovens will lock the door for at least 30 minutes to keep people from burning themselves on the very hot surface. I learned this the hard way when I accidentally enabled this program, luckily without having any food in the oven :D

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#130
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he bakes those at 825F (440 °C), which unfortunately is unattainable with most regular home ovens He was using a regular home oven, subverting the cleaning cycle: "The cabinet of most ovens is obviously designed for serious heat because the cleaning cycle will top out at over 975 which is the max reading on my Raytec digital infrared thermometer. The outside of the cabinet doesn't even get up to 85F when the oven i…

Ah I see, interesting! I think they call that pyrolytic cleaning in Europe. The problem with that is that some ovens will lock the door for at least 30 minutes to keep people from burning themselves on the very hot surface. I learned this the hard way when I accidentally enabled this program, luckily without having any food in the oven :D

> The problem with that is that some ovens will lock the door...

"I clipped off the lock using garden shears"

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