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Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

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Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#421

Post by dangjc »

entee wrote: post #324
CodeCube wrote: post #290

So many comments about, "doesn't everyone know they do this?", and "everyone does this!" I say there should be an explicit difference between "running a platform", and "selling on a platform", and never should the two meet. By "platform" here, and in the context of selling stuff online or IRL, I mainly mean that the store should never compete with their suppliers ... it's madness and unethical. If everyone can get a…

The major question I don’t have a good answer to is, “Why is this different than brick and mortar store brands like Safeway signature?” Surely a part of is is placement, but Safeway could put own brand ketchup at the same level (and I think sometimes does) as Heinz and still wouldn’t sell the same volume. Amazon is clearly getting a big advantage here, I’m just curious about what the underlying dynamics are that allo…

Maybe store brands should also be banned.

We allowed this vertical integration in retail when maybe we shouldn’t. Yeah it shaves some costs, but is probably having a huge effect on supplier diversity and margins. If we’re revisiting the consumer welfare above all doctrine, this seems fair to revisit as well.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#422

Post by samatman »

entee wrote: post #349
pge wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have wondered the same thing every time this question comes up. It seems the difference is that the companies that put products in grocery stores are very large companies that spend a huge amount on marketing themselves (e.g. P&G, General Mills). So, the "house brand" is less recognizable to consumers and sells at a discount to the known brand that is often a larger company than the grocery chain. The grocery store…

I think you’re totally right. In addition/corollary, it seems a lot of the things Amazon Basics sells are basically commodities. If you have a million iPad stands, eh, just buy the amazon basics one, it’s probably not crap and the reviews look good. I need my stand, my USB adapter, my cable, my whatever to just, “do the job”, there’s not a whole lot of performance differential within the category beyond works/doesn’t…

This also points to a hidden advantage Amazon has which is totally unethical. Namely, Amazon is perfectly willing to sell counterfeit name-brand goods, and presumably this doesn't extend to their own Amazon Basics products.

I don't think this singlehandedly explains why Amazon is so unwilling to do anything about their huge counterfeit problem, but it's suspicious that the dilemma resolves in their favor.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#423

Post by jaywalk »

milesvp wrote: post #409
werber wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been chastised for not locking my desk for this exact concern. It does happen

Don’t let anyone chastise you for this. Most desk locks are easy to pick. Also, there are like 3 keys to have on your keychain to open like 80% of all manufactured locks like the ones in furniture. Deviant Ulam, a pen tester, gives a lot of talks on this topic.

Most "crimes" of this sort would be stopped by simply locking the drawer. Nobody believes that a simple desk lock would keep out a determined attacker.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#424

Post by darkerside »

nwallin wrote: post #408
darkerside wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a similar level of trust that you give to banks not to seize your money, or to your bodyguard not to do you physical harm. Stealing data from a customer paying for hosting would be _very_ different, and much more scandalous, than identifying trends on a competitive marketplace and taking advantage of them by launching competing products.

If a bank were to seize your money, you'd notice, because you wouldn't have that money anymore. And it would be very well documented, leaving a clear paper trail to a criminal conviction and a civil suit. If your bodyguard did you physical harm, you'd notice, because your knees would hurt. And there would be ample evidence for a criminal case. If amazon copied all your proprietary data, you would almost certainly nev…

You're right that they are different, but maybe not as different as you think they are.

> If amazon copied all your proprietary data, you would almost certainly never notice, no criminal law would apply, and you'd have a hell of a time proving it in a civil suit.

If Amazon were doing this and profiting from it, that would essentially be a criminal conspiracy that reaches to the leadership of the company. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? I tend to think conspiracy theories are rarely true. Would it be caught? I believe it would likely be caught.

Companies get things done by having meetings, informing their hierarchy, and following executive decisions. In what meeting do you imagine this being discussed? Who floats this idea, and who signs off on it? I just don't see it happening. And if it does, I expect whistleblowers to put a stop to it.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#425

Post by jaywalk »

tegansnyder wrote: post #301
nateburke wrote: post #266

About 10 years ago I met the head of IT for B&H cameras in NYC. Among many things, he was in charge of the hosting for their online store. After he complained about dealing with physical servers, I asked him if he had ever considered using AWS ec2 for the website, and he replied that his boss refused because he believed that Amazon would pull data on B&H products and use it to compete more effectively. I'm not sure t…

Its my understanding a some of the large bricks and mortar retailers also stray away from hosting on AWS for these same reasons.

Walmart won't even allow their suppliers to use AWS.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#426

Post by Kalium »

Analemma_ wrote: post #361
tegansnyder wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its my understanding a some of the large bricks and mortar retailers also stray away from hosting on AWS for these same reasons.

I think that’s less about being afraid that Amazon will steal their data, and more that they don’t want to give any money to an entity already steamrolling them

Some are legitimately afraid that AWS will deprive them of the ability to scale during peak times, like holiday shopping seasons. I've heard claims of this happening to more than one retailer.

Personally, I wonder if that isn't an emergent property of a lot of people trying to scale at once.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#427

Post by sp332 »

zo1 wrote: post #306
sp332 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that exactly what MichaelApproved said?

OP said: > "The solution is to create regulations & laws that prevent this behavior." I'll take a slightly contrived and simplified set of examples to illustrate why a lot of free-market advocates don't agree with this sentiment as being correct. 1. We identify this "market failing" behavior of Amazon. I.e. Amazon does it a few times and after a while, public starts to 2. Legislators make it illegal for a platform to…

And the alternative, if I'm getting AbrahamParangi's point, is to create regulations that only apply to Amazon. That seems arbitrary and unpredictable. I understand that regulations applied equally to every company increase barriers to entry, but making special rules for specific companies weirds me out.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#428

Post by shadowwolf007 »

replicatorblog wrote: post #330
ardy42 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stating the obvious I guess. All retailers do this and create their own white-label brands to squeeze profit from well-performing categories. Target, for instance, is very upfront about it and they have like a gazillion white-label brands that compete in hundreds of categories, which makes it very gray for the customer. IIRC, many traditional white label brands are actually manufactured by the name brands themselve…

That is largely not the case. I spent ten years making private label medical devices for CVS, Kroger, Target, and dozens of other stores. There tend to be specialist manufacturers who fill the store brand niches. E.g. in pharma, close to 90% of the pills, tabs, and liquids sold in front of the pharmacy counter are made by one company, Perrigo, whose entire model is predicated on being a store brand supplier. I don't…

I work in this industry as well. That said - private label is a small (but growing) area in the US markets, so it's hard to make a generalized statement of how much someone does or does not participate.

Many retailers are beginning tie production of private labeled products in with being the captain of a category - which begins to create incentive for companies to start to pursue these private label opportunities.

K-C and P&G are two examples of companies who largely resist the private label trends in the US - you could counter with ConAgra and Treehouse.

A lot of that has to do with the product and what-not, of course.

[ed: fixed a misspeak]

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#429

Post by ceejayoz »

kube-system wrote: post #400
ceejayoz wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a pretty clear violation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act .

I'm not so sure about that. AWS terms do not assign their customers any rights to any physical computer. And the AWS customer agreement gives Amazon the authority to access your data for certain purposes. I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone prosecuted under the CFAA for accessing a computer that they physically own and physically control. AWS is a service, not a computer rental.

https://aws.amazon.com/agreement/

> We will not access or use Your Content except as necessary to maintain or provide the Service Offerings, or as necessary to comply with the law or a binding order of a governmental body.

The CFAA uses wording like "exceeds authorized access", which Amazon would absolutely be guilty of if they went into your database to spy on your product listings.

If they could go after Aaron Swartz for using authorized access in an unauthorized way, it seems likely it could be applied here.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#430

Post by beamatronic »

odysseus wrote: post #320
beamatronic wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is me. I bought an AmazonBasics product initially, a phone cable, thinking it would be crap. It wasn't. So I bought another one, a set of HDMI cables. They weren't crap either! Then I bought AmazonBasics wash cloths as a joke. They were quite nice! Now I find myself shopping around the AmazonBasics section first . I still find it amusing in a "Spaceballs, the flamethrower!" kind of way.

Where IS the AmazonBasics section? Is there a way to restrict searches to only Amazon white label products?

I see it as a tab at the top
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