Live data from Hacker News

Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

wsj.com

231–240 of 727 posts

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#231

Important line from the article > a practice at odds with the company’s stated policies... > .. as stated to congress

You want to start a discussion about company stated policies and how each person feels they do or do not live up to them? That could go on for quite awhile! edit: it was mostly a joke, calm down.

You're either missing the point or strawmanning, I'm not sure which.

In speaking with Congress, they're stating to everyone that they are there to act as a platform for third parties. They're a "pass-thru" service.

That implies that while metadata may be being collected, you shouldn't be looking at it, as it isn't "yours". It would be like a cloud provider going into business undercutting their client's because they weren't savvy enough to encrypt their business records. Or the post office going through your B2B mailings, figuring out your footprint, them becoming a competitor.

You have one job. That's it. Once you start abusing your access to your seller's transaction data to figure out where to or whether to diversify into their vertical, there is a fundamental breach of trust, and a very reasonable case to be made in having exploited something you shouldn't be.

That's the Hobbesian Leviathan for you; you don't need all those little businesses anyway!

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#233

The solution isn't hoping the free market would solve this with a competing platform. The solution is to create regulations & laws that prevent this behavior. You're either a platform/retailer or you're a manufacturer. You don't get to be both because we see the perverse incentive that happens when it's allowed.

To clarify, you're calling for a full ban on private label goods?

I would think 'brands' like Kirkland are a net good for the consumer.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#234
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that solves the problem for suppliers, but creates one for consumers with lower competition. Less competition, higher prices. *just noticed I was down voted, likely by MichaelApproved because he has 7500 Karma and I only have 156. I'm starting to really hate contributing to HackerNews discussions because it's fully of a bunch of bullies who pound on your karma if you don't agree with their viewpoints. Bring on the do…

How? Everyone else can compete...

If you regulate that Target can't compete, than that is one less competitor.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#235
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're either a platform/retailer or you're a manufacturer. You don't get to be both Ok, done. Now what are manufacturers supposed to do when Amazon and Walmart start bullying them some other way? You just made shipping their product directly to the customer against the law.

No, that's not what a platform is. You can always sell your product direct to consumer. You just can't be the intermediary for both your own and other companies' products on the same site.

Alright, so you actually can be a manufacturer and a retailer at the same time, just with your own products on a separate website.

Are manufacturers legally barred from linking to the marketplaces of its peers?

Could Amazon not just maintain two websites, and shut down the marketplace for certain goods when it feels it has enough information to sell its own versions on the other site?

If not, could Amazon not just sell the information it would have used to develop its own products to another company (which we'll assume is totally unrelated) to develop its own off-brand products, and then treat those products preferentially?

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike Amazon as much as the next guy but let's not kid ourselves here. Consumers aren't looking for innovation in the paper towel market. They just want cheap stuff. If Amazon can make these products cheaper then the consumers win.

Lack of competition drives prices up too. Once there is only one paper towel manufacturer left, what is to prevent it from raising prices?

At that point it would be an actual monopoly, and we can break that company up.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#237
post #111
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not illegal to have a monopoly; but it is illegal to use a monopoly you have in one area to get an unfair advantage in another. Amazon may or may not legally be a retail monopoly - I do not know the answer. But your question can be rephrased for any monopoly and the answer would be “monopolies should be punished for leveraging their monopoly power in other markets, because that ruins the market for everyone els…

> It is not illegal to have a monopoly; but it is illegal to use a monopoly you have in one area to get an unfair advantage in another. This is a very common misconception in the United States. It’s how a lot of defenders of antitrust law want antitrust law to work, but it is not how antitrust law does work. This Supreme Court case explicitly establishes that antitrust laws can be used against companies which obtain…

> antitrust laws can be used against companies which obtain a high market share simply by anticipating future demand and responding effectively and efficiently.

This would make sense as a feature. If you subscribe to the view that competitive pressure is the source of progress, then you never want any company to actually win. Like a donkey chasing a carrot on a stick, you want companies to endlessly run towards market dominance, but never actually get there - because once they do, they stop contributing to progress.

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone really think that any retailer launches a competing product in a category without looking at all their supplier data? So, if cars are inevitably becoming computers with wheels, what's going to happen to insurance companies? The major weapon of underwriting is data, and a company like Tesla is going to have a huge advantage in data over external insurance companies. Is it really a societal good for big com…

The difference is aggregate vs specific data. If insurance companies use the cars' data to change their policies in aggregate, there's no problem. Meaning, if they discover that cars of a particular brand have more accidents, they can raise premiums on owners of that brand of car. On the other hand, determining that YOU drive really fast, should NOT trigger a higher premium.

It should absolutely trigger a higher premium if driving faster means higher losses. Otherwise the people driving slower are subsidizing the risk that the people driving faster are taking. How is that fair?

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#239

Wow, lots of comments stating that it was common knowledge, but some fact doesn't become common knowledge simply because everyone knows it. Everyone should also know that everyone knows it and know that everyone knows that etc. which only becomes true after the article is published. The situation is materially different - this is illustrated e.g. by the famous 'island with a blue eyed population' puzzle: https://en.w…

> Wow, lots of comments stating that it was common knowledge, but some fact doesn't become common knowledge simply because everyone knows it. Common knowledge: something that many or most people know. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/common%20knowledg...

Sure, not going to quibble about word choice. The point is that many comments are like "so what, everybody knew this", but there is a material difference between "everybody knows" and "everybody knows that everybody knows".

Re: Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch competing products

#240

The solution isn't hoping the free market would solve this with a competing platform. The solution is to create regulations & laws that prevent this behavior. You're either a platform/retailer or you're a manufacturer. You don't get to be both because we see the perverse incentive that happens when it's allowed.

I agree. I am hard pressed to think of a recent time that I advocate for an anti - monopoly government action, but Amazon and its current practices is one of those times. If they provide the platform they should not be able to compete with and undercut those using their platform. They are at such as scale that they can basically put anyone out of business to the detriment of all other businesses. This is what the legislation is designed for and it should be used in this case. Pro sellers on amazon also have to pay a fee averaging 13% per sale, while amazon products don't suffer that handicap. Its a competitive advantage the sellers cannot overcome.
Post reply on HN