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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#431

Post by squaresmile »

vladislav wrote: post #284
lsh123 wrote: post #80

Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place. I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separa…

"I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible." That's difficult to believe. I went to comparable level early education schools in Russia and the US and observed stark differences in the quality of math education. Math culture is a thing, and it varies between countries, affecting the education system on the whole as well.

I think OP's comment focuses on the average outcome and your comment is about the education process. I think both are right. While there are stark differences in the process, the average outcome is probably not much different. Students not in the US can do harder problems in their final exams but how much of that comes from actual understanding of math. How much is retained a day or a month after the exams? This is about the average student, mind you. From my short talks with math educators in the US and in a Soviet-like system, I got the impression that the average math student is a mess in math in both cases.

There are probably more people on the long tail of math talent here so it's understandable their impressions on the two systems are much different. OP's comment also talked about the pipeline for gifted kids and he concurred that the Soviet style is effective for training those students.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#432

Post by champagneben »

sergiotapia wrote: post #230
WillPostForFood wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the opposite of what I've seen in California. There used to be a big focus on tracking, gifted programs and "accelerated math", but it is now perceived as inequitable. Gifted programs were cancelled, tracks eliminated, and accelerated math discouraged (you can skip a year if you study outside school, but it is discouraged). The focus is getting everyone to some minimal level, and no attention on the high perfo…

This is common core, and the reason why it was created will shock and enrage you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ8Nr3_2724 Straight from the horses mouth.

He wanted poorer, minority kids to have a chance at a good education and high standards as well? Wasn't very shocking, though the title was incendiary.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#433

Post by iorrus »

julianeon wrote: post #47
agumonkey wrote: post #12

I can only assume but culture makes things very different. I often said that French abstract algebra books stopped me from learning for 10 years (after many serious attempts). One book from Garreth Williams unlocked 80% of my issues. The shocking part was the approach. It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it's all theorems and concepts. Learning curve to make a Haskell…

I feel like it's worth pointing out here, for Americans who don't know better (no blame implied), that the French have one of the best mathematical pipelines in the world. They have almost as many Nobels (13 vs. 11) despite having 1/5 the population. Guardian article about them here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/31/europa-french-... So please don't think France is a backwater that just doesn't know how…

I studied Engineering for a period in France at the time (undergraduate) I was very impressed at the level of rigour and abilities of my French peers. However this does not seem to link well with actual abilities as a practising Engineer. For instance French engineers are not particularily coveted.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#434

Post by dirtnugget »

ThreeFx wrote: post #363
dirtnugget wrote: post #327

I had an exchange year during High School where I moved from Germany to Florida for a year and attended a public school. I hate to say this but to me the classes were laughably easy. While I was a 10th grader in Germany I could have easily graduated there. I do however favour the US system of individual classes where you could advance in e.g. Mathematics but if you had trouble with language you could take a less-inte…

You have a form of in Germany that in most of the states with the "Leistungskurse" or the "Profilklassen". I'd argue that its extremely important to _not_ be able to drop courses since it contributes to a well-rounded education, something the US sorely lacks.

Yeah but this system is taking a huge toll on the teachers. Our maths teacher had to basically give two different courses within one class, because the gap was so big.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#435

Post by Avamander »

stdbrouw wrote: post #394
Dahoon wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is just an excuse. You could easily take an "intro to programming" before trying to get into the school. All it does is lower the bar of entry and you can only teach so much in the time given so it will ultimately take time away in the other end.

Let's say lowering the bar has the result of making two courses absolutely useless for you, because you've already mastered everything there is to know about them. And let's say your typical bachelor's degree includes 30 or more courses. The time "taken away" from you is around 5%. Time that surely you could spend by studying for the other courses a little bit more diligently, by solving all the optional homework exe…

In my case it was first two semesters. Being forced to write what are basically hello worlds what you wrote six years ago was so asinine.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#436

Post by jjgreen »

MR4D wrote: post #101
Retric wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, the point of textbooks is to educate people on some topic so making them as easy as possible seems like the correct choice. Outside of competitions, the value most people get from those courses is what them remember in 5+ years when their working not really the kind of symbol manipulation that makes can make things opaque. That said, soviet style education produced a lot of great mathematicians especially relati…

Somewhat cynically, I think the point of many textbooks is to make money for the authors. There is no reason why a calculus book needs to cost $200 (in the 1990’s) and get refreshed every 2-3 years. That subject has been known for hundreds of years and they rob poor engineering and science student of that $200. Sorry, I just have a bad taste in my mouth from crap like that in undergrad. Not saying you’re wrong, just…

I've heard about this, it seems to be an American phenomenon. I taught applied mathematics at a UK Russel group university for 10 years, I started each course with "You do not need any books for this course, the lectures suffice; if you want to read around the subject I would recommend [2 or 3 Dover editions at £10-15] or [a couple of classics I was sure were in the library]". Most other lecturers did the same.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#437

Post by collyw »

fastball wrote: post #273
droopyEyelids wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah please share the examples! What you write sounds plausible, but it also mirrors a lot of what we hear from the right that is at times overstated. I'd love to hear a set of sober examples- I don't have any connection to early education anymore and I'm really curious.

As someone that has been spending a lot of time around Higher Education over the past 7 years or so, I personally cannot think of a single University I have interacted that isn't making many of their decisions under the influence of the ideas described above. This is in the US/UK.

Johnathan Haidt has some good talks on youtube about this sort of stuff. I think he mentioned Chicago University being one that is pushing for "truth" over "social justice".

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#438

Post by papeda »

new2628 wrote: post #322
paganel wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the major factors is this weird anti-intellectualism culture that just doesn't exist in Russia. It was the same thing in Romania, at least in the '90s, when I went to school/high-school. It was always strange to me seeing all those American movies of the "nerds"/geeks getting persecuted by the "cool" kids, it certainly didn't happen to kids in my school and I'm pretty sure it generally didn't happen to kids…

It even went further: in Romania, there was a popular movie in the 80s where the main plot is a high school student going to the math olympiad and his classmates cheering for him (with additional romantic threads of course).

What movie is this?

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#440

Post by widforss »

LatteLazy wrote: post #195

I don't know about the Soviets, but American books always seem to take longer to say less than other countries texts. I think it's a volume thing: Americans see 400 pages and think it must be twice the product of a 200 page alternative...

My father always told me that American textbook authors got paid by the page. That's probably not true, but it certainly feels that way when reading them.
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