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What is interesting about Factorio

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Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I go through a cycle like that every so often. I start a new game of factorio after a long break, get super addicted for a week or two, and then get a feeling that its just work, and I'd rather be working on some python project because I don't have to deal with biters attacking me in VS code. Late game factorio feels exactly like coding, except you can't copy paste as well and make loops and other time saving abstrac…

"Late game factorio feels exactly like coding, except you can't copy paste as well and make loops and other time saving abstractions." I'm not sure what you mean by "as well", but Factorio does have various rather sophisticated methods of copying and pasting. For instance, there's the regular Control-C sort of copy, which allows you to rotate the entities before pasting, should you prefer. Then there are blueprints,…

I dont mean like a literal loop, but gameplay loops that you cant automate.

This includes things like plopping down yet another mining base, plopping down yet more production, etc...

You can make blueprints for all theses things, but you can't automate the blueprint placing. Sometimes you need to reconfigure circuit stuff for special train stops, so they get the right products, and as far as I know this can't be done via blueprint.

It just gets tedious after a while, especially because it doesn't take all that much to build a rocket, making it unnecessary if you just want to beat the game.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#242

Factorio is probably one of the best $$/hr values outside of Dwarf Fortress, which is free. It’s also basically engineering catnip, consider yourself warned. For those who are interested, it’s the stated goal of the devs to never put the game on sale. They think it’s worth $30, and they intend to sell it for $30. So if you’re interested, don’t wait for a sale, buy it now!

I'd be interested in reading their analysis on price setting. $30 is much more than it was 3 years ago. I've been waiting for a discount on factorio. I guess I'll take it off my wishlist.

It was $20 during early access. So while that’s a significant price jump in terms of percentage, $10 more isn’t a big cost difference in total terms.

Compare that to AAA titles at $60 a pop, and Factorio is a steal.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#243

> Isn't it amazing that someone could do something for 100 hours and not think about obvious improvements, and not even wonder if they've been setup? I have co-workers like this: people who don't bother to learn the tools of* their trade and waste dozens of minutes every day. Taking the time to master your tools is a COMPOUNDING benefit and, at the risk of sounding inflammatory, is the type of activity that creates "…

> Taking the time to master your tools is a COMPOUNDING benefit this is problematic, and the problem is made obvious when you take this fact to its natural conclusion. are you juggling credit cards to simultaneously maximize the benefits of opening new cards with promotional offers, limiting your interest rates, and maximizing your credit score? have you investigated the air quality of your working and living spaces?…

> are you juggling credit cards to simultaneously maximize the benefits of opening new cards with promotional offers, limiting your interest rates, and maximizing your credit score?

I mean, I'm not personally doing that, because that's a bunch of manual work; but if I found about an API that I could use to automate doing that, I'd probably budget myself 30-or-so man-hours to trying to set something like that up on top of such an API.

> have you investigated the air quality of your working and living spaces?

Yes; I even bought a CO2 meter. I was feeling ill whenever I closed the windows or when there was no wind, and I wanted to eliminate obvious potential causes. Toxic mold was another possible cause.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has recently got back into games, Factorio is a ton of work—and I love strategy games like Civilization. Playing Factorio is not unlike doing engineering work itself. Initially, I was hooked. After a while, the brainpower it takes to build and refactor large factories felt too demanding. It began to feel more like work, than enjoyment.

Definitely. The article is pretty subjective; I'd say there are lots of glaring flaws in Factorio. I played it for a while, stopped when I hit a major problem, but when I came back the game had changed quite a bit and I couldn't get back into it. Flaws of Factorio in no specific order: • The car has maddeningly terrible physics. The OP claims this yields "comic fun". It doesn't. It just means you're constantly crashi…

"The car has maddeningly terrible physics. The OP claims this yields "comic fun". It doesn't. It just means you're constantly crashing into trees and needing to repair the car."

I agree about the car physics, but there are mods which will let your car run over trees and rocks without taking damage. You still have to be careful about running in to parts of your base, but bots can almost instantly repair both your car and whatever you hit if you do hit it. Also, there are mods to make the car physics more realistic, but it's still a pain to drive... especially over a network in multi-player where there's lag.

"At some point I hit a biter nest I couldn't beat, couldn't go around (some sort of story based misson). There was NO way past this obstacle. No way to make the game easier, no way to beat them"

You can turn on peaceful mode, and various mods exist to reduce the difficulty of the biters.

"The GUI is terrible. I have no idea why he thinks it's good."

I love the GUI. I think it's really well done for a game of this complexity.

"Placing rails is an exercise in frustration because it's so easy to mis-align things and end up with two pieces of rail that don't quite line up, forcing you to then dig it all up and try again."

This is easily solved by copying and pasting already aligned portions of rails. Another way to do this is by clicking on the arrow at the end of a stretch of rails and that'll let you extend them and move them around without committing until you like the layout (kind of hard to explain with words, but it's very useful and I think it should eliminate any placing issues you have that you don't just want to use copy/paste for). Finally, there are rail blueprints you could use, and even automated blueprint placement (see the "recursive blueprints" mod) than can be programmed to be as precise as you want.

"The article cites "TIL I learned a shortcut" being a meme - that's because the GUI doesn't help you learn any shortcuts."

Not true. The game shows you tooltips when you hover over portions of the GUI, and those tooltips show shortcuts (if there are any). So there's definitely plenty of shortcut discoverability in this game. Also, if you look in the "Controls" settings, you can search for game features that have shortcuts. That's great for discoverability (though it would be even better if you could do a reverse-search by typing a shortcut and be shown which feature that shortcut activates, which Factorio can't do as far as I know).

"The icons are very small yet high detail, making them difficult to distinguish sometimes. There's no way to zoom anything to make this better. The colour schemes are washed out. The art is just unattractive."

I agree about the small, unzoomable icons, which can be a bit hard to read sometimes, but at least for me playing on 1920x1080 resolution, it's rarely a significant annoyance. Very rarely I need to know what something is and have a hard time figuring it out because of the size of the little icon.. and usually in those cases I can get more information on the entity by mousing over it or clicking on it. 99% of the time that's not an issue, though.

As for the art style.. yeah, it's pretty bland. There are some mods which enhance the art a bit, but I've yet to see something that makes the game really beautiful.

Fortunately, the sound effects in the game are pretty good, and somewhat make up for the lack of visual flare.

"Randomly generated maps mean you may often end up with an unusual shortage of resources, or things in weird locations."

There are a number of things you can do about this

First, you can preview maps and control various settings that affect the random placement of resources. If you don't like the way things are placed on a random map, you can try another.

Second, you can edit your own map and that way have no randomness at all, if you don't want it.

Third, you can use someone else's hand-edited map.

"Although I enjoyed making factories at first, I pretty quickly realised this was too much like programming to actually be enjoyable long term."

This is a matter of personal preference. Personally, I enjoy the similarity to programming, and actually find it less annoying and mind-numbing than ordinary programming. Factorio programming is more fun for me than regular programming (except for combinators and the circuit network, which really are super annoying for anything even moderately complex).

"Factories quickly end up drowning in 'tech debt' if you aren't experienced"

Well, that's where playing the game more helps.. just like in any game, you get better at it by playing.

"you're constantly tempted to restart levels and try again to make a more sustainable factory, but then you end up stuck again later when you obtain some new bit of tech and realise your factory is wrongly structured for the next part of the game again"

I find myself getting better and better at this each time I play, and when I watch videos of really expert players play the game I can see that much more sophisticated organization is possible.

"how do I learn how to use bots to do that?"

I'd encourage you to search on youtube for videos on any part of the game you struggle to understand. There are a wealth of tutorials on there.

Also, I can recommend the #factorio channel on the Esper IRC network, the Factorio forum and r/factorio on Reddit. There are many expert users on there who would be happy to help you.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#245

> Isn't it amazing that someone could do something for 100 hours and not think about obvious improvements, and not even wonder if they've been setup? I have co-workers like this: people who don't bother to learn the tools of* their trade and waste dozens of minutes every day. Taking the time to master your tools is a COMPOUNDING benefit and, at the risk of sounding inflammatory, is the type of activity that creates "…

I spent most of my life as a techie in complete agreement with you. My best friend and I are "optimizers" - we type fast, we have macros and tools and utilities that make us more productive. As a tech lead and then as a technical manager though... my team members who spend (sometimes endless;) time optimizing their tools and typing fast, are not necessarily more productive than the senior experienced experts who type…

In engineering disciplines, there's a a difference between optimizing the tools you use in the process of "putting out" what you've already essentially engineered; and multiplying your productivity at engineering things in the first place.

A better text editor might make you faster at typing; but that only matters if your work was "typing-speed bound." Programmers generally aren't bound by typing speed; they're either bound by identifier lookups (figuring out what function or variable they need to use here, possibly using a library documentation or language reference, or checking elsewhere in the codebase); or they're bound by the speed at which they make decisions about the architectural design of what they're programming.

Things that solve those two problems—IDEs with auto-complete and inline documentation display, in the former case; and "convention over configuration" frameworks and uniform syntax normalization linters, in the latter case—can have much greater effects on productivity than just speeding up how fast you can input the code.

But even beyond that, I find the most powerful productivity boosters in engineering are the ones that entirely obviate a particular thinking task. What is a compiler but a tool for avoiding the thinking task of figuring out how your pseudocode properly translates into machine code? You could certainly go without one—but we all agree that that'd be ridiculous to choose to do, when you don't have to, right?

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#246
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> At some point I hit a biter nest I couldn't beat, couldn't go around (some sort of story based misson). There was NO way past this obstacle...... The research tree gives you many different ways to kill a biter nest: * Flame Throwers * Turrets / Laser Turrets * Personal Laser Defense * Combat Robots * Tank * Artillery * Atomic Bomb >> Factorio has managed to get some market success despite being pretty badly built…

Just want to second how solidly built the game feels. There's definitely a learning curve which keeps on going for many hours (and I think that's a big part of the appeal) and there's some missing in-game information that I've found myself having to look up online - that much is true. But the UX has incredible amounts of well-thought out polish. Different sized hitboxes for different components, often really favoring…

"the UX has incredible amounts of well-thought out polish"

I agree so much with this. The UX seems so incredibly well thought out.. much more than virtually any game I've ever played.

There are some wrinkles and annoyances here and there, but virtually everything I've had complaints about while playing the vanilla game I found mods for later that solved it.

The only major complaint I still have about the UX of the game is the circuit network and combinators, which are a very clunky attempt at visual programming that don't provide enough feedback to keep from descending in to spaghetti code when doing something of even moderate complexity, and debugging these things is an absolute nightmare.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> At some point I hit a biter nest I couldn't beat, couldn't go around (some sort of story based misson). There was NO way past this obstacle...... The research tree gives you many different ways to kill a biter nest: * Flame Throwers * Turrets / Laser Turrets * Personal Laser Defense * Combat Robots * Tank * Artillery * Atomic Bomb >> Factorio has managed to get some market success despite being pretty badly built…

This was during some sort of story-driven tutorial in which biters would swarm a base after a few minutes of play, so research wasn't relevant. There was no way to get past them except by just beating them out action style. I did search pretty thoroughly.

"This was during some sort of story-driven tutorial in which biters would swarm a base after a few minutes of play, so research wasn't relevant"

I have heard of this issue, and have seen a screenshot of someone else in the demo where the game placed the biters way, way, way too close to the player's base. That's just unfair, especially for a newcomer to the game.

I'd consider this a bug in the demo, and would report it as such to the developers.

In my own playthrough of the demo, about a year or two ago, I did not have this issue. The biters were well away from my base, and I had ample time to research the technology I'd need to beat them by the time they became a serious threat. I think they must have messed up the demo sometime after that.

The workaround for this is to play the full game, and forget the demo. There are plenty of tutorial videos on youtube which you can watch which will help you with any part of the game you don't understand, and in the full game you can choose a map that doesn't have any biters near by (or even make them peaceful so you don't have to worry about them at all).

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Late game factorio feels exactly like coding, except you can't copy paste as well and make loops and other time saving abstractions." I'm not sure what you mean by "as well", but Factorio does have various rather sophisticated methods of copying and pasting. For instance, there's the regular Control-C sort of copy, which allows you to rotate the entities before pasting, should you prefer. Then there are blueprints,…

I dont mean like a literal loop, but gameplay loops that you cant automate. This includes things like plopping down yet another mining base, plopping down yet more production, etc... You can make blueprints for all theses things, but you can't automate the blueprint placing. Sometimes you need to reconfigure circuit stuff for special train stops, so they get the right products, and as far as I know this can't be done…

"You can make blueprints for all theses things, but you can't automate the blueprint placing"

You can, actually. Check out the "recursive blueprints" mod.

Re: What is interesting about Factorio

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"all the inventory management is just super awkward with weird UI" That's funny, for me Factorio has one of the best and well-thought-out UI's I've ever seen in any game (especially for a game this complex).[1] [1] - With the exception of the circuit network, which is too easy to turn in to spaghetti code and a nightmare to debug.

> the best and well-thought-out UI's I've ever seen in any game As you place belts, they should rotate to create a path.

There are mods that will do exactly this.
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