Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#271

Post by null0pointer » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 4:08 AM UTC

hsitz wrote: post #226

alyx wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you read his post. You are endangering others‘ lives each time you drive. And yet you’re not inline at the DMV surrendering your license, why? Seasonal sickness also isn’t new. My coworker gave me the flu and I gave it to my grandmother. Who’s at fault there?

Covid-19 is not like the seasonal flu. Or, yeah, maybe it is just like the flu, except (1) covid-19 is more contagious, (2) Covid-19 is much more likely to kill you if you get infected, and (3) much of the population has immunity so seasonal flu, while almost nobody has immunity to Covid-19,so it would run roughshod over a population if people didn't social distance (unless testing/contact tracing infrastructure was…

Settle down. They're not comparing COVID-19 to the Flu, they're using the Flu as an example to talk about transitive infections.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#272

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 4:13 AM UTC

staticassertion wrote: post #167

duchenne wrote: post #155

I guess it is easy to dismiss the message from ordinary people, since they do not express themselves as well as the professional speakers we are used to listen to. If instead of saying "I want a haircut.", they would say like Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." would they be taken more seriously? In the movie versio…

> If instead of saying "I want a haircut.", they would say like Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." would they be taken more seriously? Most people sound more like the latter than the former. If people were saying "We have a need for haircuts etc, this is serious", they'd get a lot more consideration than some appea…

> Most people sensibly realize that a lock-down in the face of a pandemic is not a regression in our fundamental rights as US citizens, but just a temporary measure to save lives.

But that's not what we're talking about here. Facebook isn't going to an event and shutting it down, they're preventing people from discussing having an event.

There is also a bit of a different trouble with the government shutting down the event itself:

> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Going to a public event right now is dumb. But some of the things people have a right to do are dumb and they still have a right to do them.

And this is unusually problematic when the purpose of the event is to discuss the lockdown. It's like saying you can't have a public debate on something because the thing you're debating has already been decided against you before you get a chance to make your case. How are you supposed to organize the movement against that decision then?

Maybe they have a point and the only reason we don't agree is that they haven't been able to organize into a group that can effectively convey their message.

> The role of our government is not to provide data but then otherwise let people do whatever.

They should try it sometime. Most of the evils they aim to prevent come from people not having the right information to make a good decision. Just having a strong record of making good recommendations that people can trust would cause nearly everyone to follow them, since people would learn that following them is easier and leads to better outcomes than not. Whereas if they have a record of making bad decisions then how is it better for those bad decisions to have the force of law?

> The government stepped in with license requirements, manufacturing requirements, etc.

There is some evidence that this has caused the rate of improvement of vehicle safety to slow because they basically hard-coded a lot of 1970s-era technology which is now required even if incompatible with something better, and license plates have turned out to be a mass location privacy violation as a result of ALPR.

Now compare this to the alternative where they don't mandate anything but still publish vehicle safety ratings so that customers know which vehicles do the best in crashes and making a safe car is thereby something manufacturers have to compete on to win customers.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#273

Post by lazyasciiart » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 4:17 AM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #118

oldsklgdfth wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RFI: I'm interested in learning more about an alternative strategy to the lockdown.

Sweden has open schools, movie theaters, restaurants (limited people; tables further apart) and bars (can't buy beer). People are working from home when they can. High risk people and older people are told to self isolate. Their hospitals are not overwhelmed. Their people do no wear masks. They hope the infection can spread slowly and they can deal with it. Sweden is criticized heavily, but if their strategy works, t…

To be clear, they have closed high schools and universities, and kept open junior schools under the theory that many children would need childcare anyway (over 80% of families have two working parents). Enough parents are keeping their kids home anyway that they are sending out warnings. 50% of the workforce is now working from home, under government orders for employers to support it where possible. People who have higher than normal vulnerability can stay home even if they can't work from home and they will receive unemployment benefits. Employers can furlough employees for three months at half pay, and the government will cover the other 50%. 70% of Swedes say they have reduced social activities, cell phone data shows 90% reduction in Easter holiday congregation. I haven't seen it measured but it's plausible that the amount of in-person contact between Swedish people is lower than the UK or US.

If that's the case, then the question is not "did we really need to reduce activity that much" but "could other countries have achieved the same low social contact rates without enforcing it?"

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#274

Post by lazyasciiart » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 4:21 AM UTC

FpUser wrote: post #212

Exmoor wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most plausible one I've heard was to heavily quarantine people at higher risk of dying or having severe complications from COVID-19 while having looser restrictions on people highly unlikely to suffer serious consequences. This would, theoretically, allow the virus to propagate throughout the population and a herd immunity to develop naturally. It's relatively close to what's being done in Sweden, so I guess we'l…

If I am high risk person in a smallish group it should then be my choice to self-isolate or not as it will not affect the rest of the population

Should the government be obligated to offer you support for that choice? That would probably mean at minimum money to replace your work income, something like a new category of 'being high risk' a qualification for unemployment. Or should your choice be limited to self isolate and starve, or keep working?

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#275

Post by lazyasciiart » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 4:23 AM UTC

nopriorarrests wrote: post #263

FpUser wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm damn tired working from home." Interesting. I work from home 20 years already and have no desire to sit in a cubicle or waste my time in downtown traffic. I have my own company and products but also develop products for other companies on order and my first ever requirement is that unless there is some super duper meeting I only work at my own premises. Do not feel lonely either as I have enough friends with who…

OK, it's not just work from home, it's the whole lockdown hysteria. I barely left my home for last 5 weeks. No live music, no bars, no meetings with friends, no long walks. I don't know about covid, but my mental well being and my productivity are clearly taking a hit. I'm especially annoyed by the fact that weekends are not, in fact, weekends. It is two days of solitary confinement without work.

Why no long walks? I haven't heard of that being prevented anywhere in the US.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#276

Post by projektfu » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 4:25 AM UTC

staticassertion wrote: post #167

duchenne wrote: post #155

I guess it is easy to dismiss the message from ordinary people, since they do not express themselves as well as the professional speakers we are used to listen to. If instead of saying "I want a haircut.", they would say like Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." would they be taken more seriously? In the movie versio…

> If instead of saying "I want a haircut.", they would say like Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." would they be taken more seriously? Most people sound more like the latter than the former. If people were saying "We have a need for haircuts etc, this is serious", they'd get a lot more consideration than some appea…

I just learned that Facebook censors gifs from Team America World Police, so I’m not sure that it should be relied on for a conversation about anything critical.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#277

Post by lazyasciiart » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 4:26 AM UTC

megavolcano wrote: post #156

phakding wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are okay with 16 out of every 1000, 30-39 year old person with a family and young kids who are otherwise healthy, die just so you could go out to eat in your favorite restaurant? You are willing to sacrifice them for your benefit. How altruistic of you!

Considering that the more data we get with regards to fatality rate, it's looking more and more along the lines of the seasonal flu (which has a vaccine, generally). The drastic measures taken to protect a tiny minority of people are looking to be more and more pointless. We would not tolerate shutting down the world economy to protect people from the seasonal flu, and we should not tolerate it for this.

How do you reconcile this argument with the hospitals being full and morgues overrun? Do you think that happens every flu season?

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#278

Post by projektfu » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 4:29 AM UTC

kfrzcode wrote: post #256

staticassertion wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very little about this feels like the Patriot Act. I also don't really see why the government would want to tank its economy. I mean, I can think of some really out there reasons, but I don't really feel it's worth entertaining given the far more reasonable reason for lock-in during a pandemic. edit: When I say 'this' I mean enforced lock in, specifically.

What feelings did you feel in October 2001?

I’ll jump in. I was considering joining the Army, ready to fight our enemies, and 100% for helping recover in any way we could. But I was also annoyed by security “Theater” and the “See, what did we tell you!” attitude towards racial profiling as though it would have helped prevent anything.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#279

Post by downerending » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 4:31 AM UTC

TomMckenny wrote: post #147

downerending wrote: post #24

It's worth noting that there is a lot of discussion in serious circles (including here on HN) about the balance between too much and not enough with respect to quarantine, lockdown, etc., both in terms of where we are now and what we should do in the near future. I see little reason to doubt that all involved are trying to minimize general death and misery, even if they may disagree radically about how to do that. It…

>that all involved are trying to minimize general death and misery Unless the anti-quarantine events are organized by a hostile power. And this seems likely since they are insanely harmfully, arose suddenly and with widespread and great organization and have a lot of precedent. [1][2][3] And especially since it's already been explicitly shown for at least some of the domains connected to the protests.[4] [1] https://…

We should never discount the idea that a hostile state-level power could be involved in our politics. And we pay a huge number of people in government to be paranoid about that.

That said, I doubt these protests have much effect. It's kind of like people standing on corners waving signs, or the pro-antifa vs anti-antifa stick-fests. Amusing or mildly appalling and worth a click-bait article, but does anyone really care?

If there's any real effect, I suspect it'll be just to mark that there are people suffering, people who have lost their livelihoods, can't make their rent, and just want to go back to their okay-but-not-great jobs so they can live their lives.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#280

Post by pavlov » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 4:32 AM UTC

downerending wrote: post #24

It's worth noting that there is a lot of discussion in serious circles (including here on HN) about the balance between too much and not enough with respect to quarantine, lockdown, etc., both in terms of where we are now and what we should do in the near future. I see little reason to doubt that all involved are trying to minimize general death and misery, even if they may disagree radically about how to do that. It…

Facebook took down these event pages at the request of US state officials.

Google also removes pages from their index at the request of law enforcement or by court order. There’s nothing wild about that.