Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#111

Post by spunker540 » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 11:55 PM UTC

oldsklgdfth wrote: post #72

downerending wrote: post #24

It's worth noting that there is a lot of discussion in serious circles (including here on HN) about the balance between too much and not enough with respect to quarantine, lockdown, etc., both in terms of where we are now and what we should do in the near future. I see little reason to doubt that all involved are trying to minimize general death and misery, even if they may disagree radically about how to do that. It…

> I see little reason to doubt that all involved are trying to minimize general death and misery, even if they may disagree radically about how to do that. It's interesting that even with the best case scenario there are entities with enough power to control behavior like that. That fact is scary. If they have ulterior motives. That fact is scarier.

They don’t have the power to control behavior arbitrarily though. If they tried to shut down business last year for no reason at all, you can bet there’d be push back, protests and eventually they’d be voted out of office and laws would be changed etc.

However when there is a pandemic overwhelming hospital systems around the world, they do have the power to shut things down precisely because most people agree with that decision. Clearly right now there is a vocal minority who disagrees and has chosen to protest. And as far as I can tell they are suffering no consequences besides being ridiculed and called “stupid” by the folks who consent to staying in for the greater good. The us government only has the power to shut things down when most people agree that they should have that power.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#112

Post by aclsid » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 11:55 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #97

kevinventullo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see little reason to doubt that all involved are trying to minimize general death and misery At the risk of sounding inflammatory, there are pretty clearly some actors who would welcome death and misery upon others if it meant they made some money.

Sure, like China using its influence over the WHO to mislead about the nature of the outbreak within its borders and exclude Taiwan from the international health community. I'm more worried about that than some powerless randos who are mad about the massive QALY loss we're currently going through.

[flagged]

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#113

Post by tehjoker » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 11:55 PM UTC

I think the anti-quarantine protests are motivated by the most idiotic non-goals and were started by the Proud Boys before they were boosted by Fox News and the administration which are desperate to reopen the economy at the cost of any level of blood sacrifice on the altar of the DOW.

That said, allowing Zuckerberg to simply silence protest movements on a whim is insane and will bite all of us incredibly hard in the future. He should not have this kind of power.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#114

Post by cpwright » Mon, Apr 20, 2020, 11:58 PM UTC

gdubs wrote: post #73

downerending wrote: post #24

It's worth noting that there is a lot of discussion in serious circles (including here on HN) about the balance between too much and not enough with respect to quarantine, lockdown, etc., both in terms of where we are now and what we should do in the near future. I see little reason to doubt that all involved are trying to minimize general death and misery, even if they may disagree radically about how to do that. It…

I’m too tired at the moment to figure out where I stand on this [issue of free speech / assembly] but I have a general question: I thought the Supreme Court has already shown that there are limits to speech, such as yelling “Fire” in a crowded theater. I guess the distinction is how directly the speech leads to harm. Would that apply in this situation where most medical experts would agree that the quarantine is nece…

"Would that apply in this situation where most medical experts would agree that the quarantine is necessary for saving lives? Or is the thinking that this is too far removed — like telling people they can’t protest seat-belts."

Medical experts and scientists can provide data that helps inform people. Just because medical experts say something will "save lives" does not mean we should blindly follow that as policy. There is unfortunately a dearth of data that would allow us to make well-informed policy choices.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#115

Post by pacala » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 12:00 AM UTC

phakding wrote: post #88

chrisco255 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not astroturfing. I saw the protest in Austin this weekend. 22 million people have been laid off in the last 4 weeks. I've seen the footage of tens of thousands lining up at food banks across the country. This is just getting started.

I don't see the link here. Yes there are 22 million laid off. But given a choice between being alive and being jobless, I think people would choose being jobless. The people protesting are not the same people lining up at food banks. I have seen wapo video of Michigan protest. People there were angry because they want to get their hair done or buy paint and fertilizer. They want others to go to work to they can stay…

The disease does not affect age groups equally. From what I've seen, most victims are in the 60+ age groups. From NYC fatality report [0]:

    0-9: 1 0%
    10-19: 6 0.1%
    20-29: 56 0.4%
    30-39: 227 1.6%
    40-49: 535 3.7%
    50-59: 1410 9.8%
    60-69: 2863 20.0%
    70-79: 3811 26.6%
    80-89: 1753 25.4%
    90+: 12.2%

Think of people having a "vitality score" that decreases with age, and of disease as a stressor that kills people with the "vitality score" under a certain threshold. That's how the yearly flu works, by culling people under the threshold. We attribute the death to "the flu", but we could easily also call it "death by old age".

Most working age people will be just fine. Except they are jobless. Terrible times.

[0] https://covid19tracker.health.ny.gov/views/NYS-COVID19-Track...

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#116

Post by aclsid » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 12:00 AM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #3

These are Americans exercising their constitutional rights to freedom of speech and assembly. Whether you agree with the protestors or not is irrelevant. Your rights are impacted, too, by this arbitrary platform bias. This cannot stand for long. We have to move away from centralized monopolies on the web.

This is a tough question because on one side freedom of speech is something that ought to be protected and it is somebody's opinion of what means misinformation or not.

But on the other hand, if you allow people that spread extreme ideologies like fascism/nazism, communism, hatred between religious or ethnic groups, that is where you should draw the line.

In here, supporting freedom of speech and therefore the ability for deniers to have a platform sets a dangerous precedent for the whole population. Just like anti-vaccine groups, they are creating a massive hazzard for people that disagree with them, so just like the law says, your right ends where mine begins.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#117

Post by mike_d » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 12:00 AM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #3

These are Americans exercising their constitutional rights to freedom of speech and assembly. Whether you agree with the protestors or not is irrelevant. Your rights are impacted, too, by this arbitrary platform bias. This cannot stand for long. We have to move away from centralized monopolies on the web.

> constitutional rights to freedom of speech and assembly

The constitution applies to the government, not Facebook.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#118

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 12:01 AM UTC

oldsklgdfth wrote: post #83

downerending wrote: post #24

It's worth noting that there is a lot of discussion in serious circles (including here on HN) about the balance between too much and not enough with respect to quarantine, lockdown, etc., both in terms of where we are now and what we should do in the near future. I see little reason to doubt that all involved are trying to minimize general death and misery, even if they may disagree radically about how to do that. It…

RFI: I'm interested in learning more about an alternative strategy to the lockdown.

Sweden has open schools, movie theaters, restaurants (limited people; tables further apart) and bars (can't buy beer). People are working from home when they can. High risk people and older people are told to self isolate. Their hospitals are not overwhelmed. Their people do no wear masks. They hope the infection can spread slowly and they can deal with it.

Sweden is criticized heavily, but if their strategy works, they could have very little SARS-CoV-2 in the next few months while the rest of the world constantly re-surges because the lockdown didn't really stop anything, just delayed it.

We have no idea which one will be true. Predicting the future with math has never worked for the stock market. Why did we think it would work here?

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#119

Post by Press2forEN » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 12:01 AM UTC

phakding wrote: post #88

chrisco255 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not astroturfing. I saw the protest in Austin this weekend. 22 million people have been laid off in the last 4 weeks. I've seen the footage of tens of thousands lining up at food banks across the country. This is just getting started.

I don't see the link here. Yes there are 22 million laid off. But given a choice between being alive and being jobless, I think people would choose being jobless. The people protesting are not the same people lining up at food banks. I have seen wapo video of Michigan protest. People there were angry because they want to get their hair done or buy paint and fertilizer. They want others to go to work to they can stay…

The choice between being alive and being jobless is a false dichotomy.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#120

Post by debaserab2 » Tue, Apr 21, 2020, 12:02 AM UTC

0xy wrote: post #101

debaserab2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's the part that's tripping people up. You're kinda just hand-waving over the link between the newly unemployed facing the same conditions that create an increased mortality rate for those in poverty. Not all who are unemployed lack the means to continue living an unimpoverished lifestyle (savings, benefits, depending on a partner, budget reduction, etc) and presumably many of the unemployed will be…

Is your position that people who will be made unemployed as a result of the economic destruction have enough savings and that we are providing enough benefits for them to survive? 59% of Americans could not afford $1,000 in an emergency. [1] So you're talking about an optimistic runway of $1,000 + a $1,200 one-time benefit payment. The average person will be in poverty within 60 days. I think you're dramatically over…

Of course I’m not. I’m pointing out why looking at the mortality rate of poverty doesn’t support the argument that the economy implications of shelter in place are somehow deadlier than the disease itself.

The onus is still on you to make a meaningful argument to support that statement.