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Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

lowtechmagazine.com

71–80 of 103 posts

Re: Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sepp Holzer's farm is amazing. I think however it's unlikely that he's truly able to grow citrus fruit at scale even using all of his near magical techniques. Where he is able to grow citrus fruit is taking advantage of very small micro climates with ponds buffering temperatures and acting to reflect evening sun along with perfect orientation etc.

Permaculture in general sadly does not produce at scale at all and scaling up is very labour intensive.

The average car in the US has a 120 horsepower engine, less if it's a compact, more if it's a truck or SUV.

Think about that for a second -- your garage is housing the equivalent of 120 horses. How much "labor" is that?

Now, we don't really notice that when everything is working well and the gasoline keeps flowing. There are calculations that figure a gallon of oil has something like two weeks of 8-hour/day manual labor embedded in it, energy-wise (using the cute term "energy slaves"). Synthentic fertilizer is basically spending a crap-ton of energy to fix nitrogen -- google "haber bosch energy".

Especially with the covid supply chain disruptions going on now, though, I've been rethinking what "scale" means or if it's even the right metric to be going for. Permaculture has been really interesting to me last few weeks because it doesn't try to go for "scale" per se (though there are claims that properly done it's more productive per acre), but rather it tries to cycle as many energy flows as possible.

So if your yardstick is "how many bushels of corn per acre can I grow?" then yeah, permaculture doesn't 'scale'. But if your yardstick is "how do I get the most output while minimizing energy inputs" and accept that outputs aren't necessarily a monocrop but can be complementary outputs (corn + legumes + animals + fertilizer), then it starts to get really interesting.

I'm a developer not a farmer, but the systems-level thinking I've seen in the permaculture community is extremely fascinating. There's 'labor' embedded everywhere, the question is are you counting it.

Re: Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

#72

I wonder if hackernews mods keep tabs on people carpet downvoting?

They do, and are usually pretty responsive to questions like this if you send them email at hn@ycombinator.com. I don't know if that's what's happening here, though.

For example, despite having a copy of one of Holzer's books next to my bed, I downvoted your "Sepp [heart]" comment. It's just not the right comment for HN: no context, and emoticons are really frowned on. If instead you'd written a few sentences explaining why you admire him, so that people who don't know who he is could understand, you'd probably have gotten a bunch of upvotes.

I'm sorry if it feels like people are attacking you. It's really not, instead it's really about trying to keep the site as good as it currently is. Almost all comment heavy sites of this age have declined to be unusable by now, but because of the different moderation approach, HN manages to (at least occasionally) still have quality discussion.

Re: Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget about Point Barrow. I live in Upstate NY, one of the best Apple growing regions in the world. I’m eating an Apple grown in Chile while local orchards collapse. Food has more to do with capital and commerce than anything else. The inefficiencies of consolidated global scale distribution require squeezing every penny on the production side.

It's not a requirement, it's a choice, and one with catastrophic downside risk. Refusing protectionist trade policy became popular among the people who make these decisions, a trend which accelerated after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We're in the middle of a crisis which brought to stark light the lack of resilience created by this relentless focus on efficiency and productivity at any cost. But this is policy,…

I’m not talking trade policy. It makes sense to get summer crops from South America in winter/spring! It ridiculous to get months old apples from there. The US regulatory and monetary system facilitates big players.

Today you have buyer cartels purchasing in bulk and fixing prices. They demand quantities and pricing that shut the market to most players.

I can’t buy lettuce in NY at retail because the supply chain from Arizona and California is fubar. Farmers in NY will be harvesting lettuce from high tunnels soon, but they don’t have access to markets and can’t scale.

Re: Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

#75

There was a similar article shared here a few months ago on Fruit Walls: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/12/fruit-walls-urban-fa...

The fruit walls article a perennial favorite on HN.[0] (Pun intended.)

[0] https://hn.algolia.com/?q=fruit+walls

Re: Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that greenhouses are the most laborious. Can’t drive a tractor through to plant and pick everything.

Actually its the other way around! Automation in the controlled environment of a greenhouse is much simpler to implement than out on a field. Ok, there are certain crops that still haven't been cracked in terms of automating the picking mostly due to fragility/spoilage of the items being picked, but other than that, you have a regulated climate/humidity/temp (you can pause "rain" , etc in sync with the tasks you want…

Sure, but one guy with a tractor in a field has a lot of advantages over that.

Re: Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

#77
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the math of geothermal greenhouses powered by renewables versus the carbon footprint of air freight of food. As renewables drive down the cost of electricity, the economics continually shift towards local production versus import. Outside of Alberta, most of Canada's electrical generation is very low carbon (nuclear and hydro) per electricitymap.org.

NS, NB, NT, SK are all pretty dirty - https://energyrates.ca/the-main-electricity-sources-in-canad...

They only account for 10% of the national population though.

Re: Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Permaculture in general sadly does not produce at scale at all and scaling up is very labour intensive.

The average car in the US has a 120 horsepower engine, less if it's a compact, more if it's a truck or SUV. Think about that for a second -- your garage is housing the equivalent of 120 horses. How much "labor" is that? Now, we don't really notice that when everything is working well and the gasoline keeps flowing. There are calculations that figure a gallon of oil has something like two weeks of 8-hour/day manual la…

...except that you can go to a store where you can simply BUY for CHEAP far far more and more diverse foods than you could ever dream of growing.

No one who does this thinks it's efficient. It's just a fun hobby.

Re: Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sepp Holzer's farm is amazing. I think however it's unlikely that he's truly able to grow citrus fruit at scale even using all of his near magical techniques. Where he is able to grow citrus fruit is taking advantage of very small micro climates with ponds buffering temperatures and acting to reflect evening sun along with perfect orientation etc.

Permaculture in general sadly does not produce at scale at all and scaling up is very labour intensive.

You need to look at the work of Mark Shepard. His work is all about farm scale permaculture.

He has a book Restoration Agriculture you can find on Amazon, etc.

Re: Fruit Trenches: Cultivating Subtropical Plants in Freezing Temperatures

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a requirement, it's a choice, and one with catastrophic downside risk. Refusing protectionist trade policy became popular among the people who make these decisions, a trend which accelerated after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We're in the middle of a crisis which brought to stark light the lack of resilience created by this relentless focus on efficiency and productivity at any cost. But this is policy,…

I’m not talking trade policy. It makes sense to get summer crops from South America in winter/spring! It ridiculous to get months old apples from there. The US regulatory and monetary system facilitates big players. Today you have buyer cartels purchasing in bulk and fixing prices. They demand quantities and pricing that shut the market to most players. I can’t buy lettuce in NY at retail because the supply chain fro…

The apple is not months old, but more likely a year old. They are kept in cold storage for extended periods of time.

The truth is that it makes horrible sense to ship crops to the US from anywhere outside of the US.

US agriculture policy is broken fundamentally. It is corn, soy, wheat. It is what is used as the feed stock for industrial food production. Basically, all the pseudo-food that lines your grocery store shelves. In the US, your tax dollars are used to subsidize the production of this "food" so that it is artificially cheap.

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